Russell Is Overrated

[Soundwave]

I'm sorry, but I just can't overlook a lot of things. He was a great player, but IMO he's not GOAT just based on titles. Some facts

- He was the clear no.3 (THREE) option on the Celtics. Havlicek and Jones were the Celtics 1-2 scorers and would often average over 25 ppg each, giving Boston the best offense in the league most years.

- He never shot anywhere close to 50% FG in his career. Despite probably having a ton of gimme baskets around the hoop. His offensive game was fairly average at best.

- His career high ppg is 18.9, often times he wasn't even in the top 15 for NBA ppg.

- He played in an era where there were like 10 players total in the entire league who were 6-10 or taller and he was probably more athletic and stronger than all of them save maybe Wilt. It wasn't all "short white guys", but the fact is the league was far smaller back then, that's just a fact. Probably a good deal less athletic as well.

- For a "defensive powerhouse" the Celtics allowed well over 100 ppg scored pretty much every year.

- In a 9-10 team league the Celtics were hands down the most talented overall pretty much every year scoring like 110 ppg in many seasons, despite Russell chipping in maybe 14-18 ppg and 5 assists per.

He was a monster on the glass, there's no doubt there, and I don't doubt he was great in the locker room, but he was also on a stacked team and could focus on grabbing rebounds against mostly smaller players every night and not having burden much of the offensive load.

[B-Low]

Pretty good analysis based on 3 minute youtube videos and stat websites

All the best in depth scouting reports feature the word "probably"

[fpliii]

[Nashty]

http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2...l-russell.html

[Soundwave]

Why not do some research?

A lot of the things I listed were facts.

He was the no.3 option offensively on his team (fact).

He never shot over 50% from the field in his career (fact). Not even close actually.

He never average over 19 ppg in any season and was often outside of the top 15 in NBA scoring (fact).

The Celtics were often times the most loaded offensive team in a 9-10 team league with Havlicek and Jones as their 1-2 punch upfront averaging over 110 ppg some seasons (fact).

There were only like 10 players taller than 6-10 back in those days for the entire league (fact).

I'm not saying he wasn't a great player, I'm just saying there should be some context here too.

I personally would not take him over Kareem or Wilt or Shaq (that's not a knock on him, those are three great players as well). I think he benefited a lot from playing on a stacked team and could focus his energy on grabbing boards.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Why not do some research?

A lot of the things I listed were facts.

He was the no.3 option offensively on his team (fact).

He never shot over 50% from the field in his career (fact).

He never average over 19 ppg in any season and was often outside of the top 15 in NBA scoring (fact).

The Celtics were often times the most loaded offensive team in a 9-10 team league with Havlicek and Jones as their 1-2 punch upfront averaging over 110 ppg some seasons (fact).

There were only like 10 players taller than 6-10 back in those days for the entire league (fact).

I'm not saying he wasn't a great player, I'm just saying there should be some context here too.

Only like, and fact in the same sentence. Yeah your opinion sure matters (fact)

[Soundwave]

Only like, and fact in the same sentence. Yeah your opinion sure matters (fact)

Those are facts I think many people are not aware of. Not opinion.

My opinion doesn't make his career high only 18.9 ppg or change the fact that he never came close to shooting 50% even once in his career.

Or that Havlicek and Jones were the 1-2 offensive options for the Celtics. Shouldn't they be given some due? If Scottie Pippen ever was the no.1 option for even 1 of the Bulls titles, we'd hear about it non-stop. Ditto for Wade in Miami or Kobe in LA (over Shaq).

I think there's this assumption on this board that he was relatively close to Wilt offensively, and then far better defensively. He wasn't even in the same ball park with Wilt offensively. Not. Even. Close.

[CavaliersFTW]

Do yourselves a favor and head over to the quality Bill Russell thread
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=305291
(which is what made Soundwave so butthurt that he had to make this thread)

[FreezingTsmoove]

Those are facts I think many people are not aware of. Not opinion.

My opinion doesn't make his career high only 18.9 ppg or change the fact that he never came close to shooting 50% even once in his career.

Or that Havlicek and Jones were the 1-2 offensive options for the Celtics. Shouldn't they be given some due? If Scottie Pippen ever was the no.1 option for even 1 of the Bulls titles, we'd hear about it non-stop. Ditto for Wade in Miami or Kobe in LA (over Shaq).

I think there's this assumption on this board that he was relatively close to Wilt offensively, and then far better defensively. He wasn't even in the same ball park with Wilt offensively. Not. Even. Close.

I'm not denying the stat facts but you can't call a sentence a fact while using the word like b

[Nashty]

Boston was 690-273 (.717) when he was playing and 26-26 (.500) when he was not playing (fact).

[Soundwave]

Boston was 690-273 (.717) when he was playing and 26-26 (.500) when he was not playing (fact).

And I'm not saying he didn't have an impact.

He was obviously the best rebounder in the league and one of the few guys actually 6-10 and probably was stronger than most guys in the league at that time.

But I think at the same time there were a lot of holes in his game that don't get any mention and were glossed over because he could let Havlicek and Jones and others carry the offensive load.

We're talking about a Celtics team that some seasons averaged a whopping 110 ppg+, lol, yet he couldn't get more than 18/5 assists or shoot better than 50%?

[CavaliersFTW]

And I'm not saying he didn't have an impact.

He was obviously the best rebounder in the league and one of the few guys actually 6-10 and probably was stronger than most guys in the league at that time.

But I think at the same time there were a lot of holes in his game that don't get any mention and were glossed over because he could let Havlicek and Jones and others carry the offensive load.

Russell was the skinniest center in the league almost every season that he played, yet you assume he was "probably stronger than most guys in the league at that time"

Was he stronger than Bellamy? Pettit? Lovellete? Embry? Wilt? Thurmond? Reed? I have a hard time thinking of centers who were skinnier than Russell, where as I can rattle off many that were documented as being heavier, and had a reputation for being stronger just off the top of my head. "Strength" wasn't even one of Bill Russell's gifts. Please stop commenting on this subject, your only embarrassing yourself.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Russell was the skinniest center in the league almost every season that he played, yet you assume he was "probably stronger than most guys in the league at that time"

Was he stronger than Bellamy? Pettit? Lovellete? Embry? Wilt? Thurmond? Reed? I have a hard time thinking of centers who were skinnier than Russell, where as I can rattle off many that were documented as being heavier, and had a reputation for being stronger just off the top of my head. "Strength" wasn't one of Bill Russell's gifts. Please stop commenting on this subject, your only embarrassing yourself.

Go ham bro

[Soundwave]

Russell was the skinniest center in the league almost every season that he played, yet you assume he was "probably stronger than most guys in the league at that time"

Was he stronger than Bellamy? Pettit? Lovellete? Embry? Wilt? Thurmond? Reed? I have a hard time thinking of centers who were skinnier than Russell, where as I can rattle off many that were stronger just off the top of my head. Please stop commenting on this subject, your only embarrassing yourself.

There simply weren't very many players in the league 6-10 or taller back then period.

I mean you can get mad at me for saying that, but that doesn't change it from being the truth. There were like maybe 10 players 6-10 or taller in the entire league in many of the seasons he played, and 2-3 of them were on the Celtics (himself included) often times.

[Ne 1]

11 rings and 5 MVPs speaks for itself. Assigning an arbitrary criteria that the top players must be an offensive threat is just naive. I guess this shows the prevailing stat hog mentality and double standards of today's fans. Magic averaged less than 20 PPG, is he worthy to be put in the top 10? John Stockton only averaged 13 PPG is he worthy to be included in the top 30? People put way too much stock on an individuals scoring stats to determine their greatness, especially when such scoring stats (and stats in general) don't tell a complete picture of the player's contributions.