Nash is the best player in the league

[telephone]

good point and you are right. That wouldnt make him better.

But all i am saying is that Nash's stats are so illuminated because of the stats he has. OF course the system is made for him and it is the system that works best.

But to me there are other systems that work around great players like Dirk and Duncan that work just as well and even better than the suns. (Mavs are 2-0 against suns this season)

So as a benefit of such a high octance offense his stats are inflated a whole lot more than the system of Dirk and Duncan who do other things to helpe his team win that arent necessarily reflected in stats. Do you know what I mean?

[adamcz]

Nash is the only point guard capable of running the Suns the way they're run. The Raptors tried to recreate it with TJ Ford who seemed like a great candidate, but they quickly found they had to slow the pace down to win. Somebody in this thread said that Kidd could do it, but half of Nash's assists come from those pick and roll bounce passes which wouldn't be open to Kidd (with the defense slacking off of him). Chris Paul? He already has talented scorers around him, so he should be doing it right now if he's that good (or at least should have been before Peja got hurt).

[elementally morale]

But all i am saying is that Nash's stats are so illuminated because of the stats he has. OF course the system is made for him and it is the system that works best.

But to me there are other systems that work around great players like Dirk and Duncan that work just as well and even better than the suns. (Mavs are 2-0 against suns this season)

So as a benefit of such a high octance offense his stats are inflated a whole lot more than the system of Dirk and Duncan who do other things to helpe his team win that arent necessarily reflected in stats. Do you know what I mean?

I do.

I have some counter-arguments, though. Remember the Showtime Lakers? Was Magic a 'result of the system'? Or was the system a result of Magic? Those lakers scored a lot of points, and I think we can all agree on one thing: Magic had better teammates than Nash has. Yet, nash's numbers this year are very well comparable to Magic's of the past, rebounding aside (but Magic was like half a foot taller).

Play the same game with Isiah, Bird or even Jordan. They made the system? The system made them? They all had better teammates than Nash has now. As far as accomplishments go, you will not win it all without good enough teammates, and you will never be 'accomplished' yourself if your TEAM fails to win it (all).

You can NEVER get accomplished as an individual, and you also can't make your team get the accomplishments for you if you are not a good enough individual. Hence the only thing Nash needs is 2 rings. It's not at all likely he will get them. But once he has (would)... you know the rest.

[telephone]

adamcz he has david west and peja out. David west is his main man too and a dominant PF

Are you trying to say Nash made the system or the system made nash?
Sorry i didnt pick up on it.
No i dont remember the showtime lakers cus i was 0-3 yrs old than.

I thought we were forgetting the past too like you said in your other post?

Ok i just reread the last part I i think you are saying NASH MADE THE SYSTEM and Dirk did not.

[adamcz]

There's so much parity in the league this year, I think the Suns have as much of a shot as anyone to win the title. I'd give even odds to Spurs, Mavs and Suns. 3 or 4 other teams have a realistic shot too.

[KWALI]

Nash is the only point guard capable of running the Suns the way they're run. The Raptors tried to recreate it with TJ Ford who seemed like a great candidate, but they quickly found they had to slow the pace down to win. Somebody in this thread said that Kidd could do it, but half of Nash's assists come from those pick and roll bounce passes which wouldn't be open to Kidd (with the defense slacking off of him). Chris Paul? He already has talented scorers around him, so he should be doing it right now if he's that good (or at least should have been before Peja got hurt).

AI is gonna be doing it as soon as the Nuggets get back to full strength.....He's already been putting up gawdy assist and efficientcy numbers up in philly and Denver....

Oh the reason the Suns work is NASH shooting plus Marion, Amare, Barbosa and Diaw not just NASh do you guys remember who averaged double digit assists b4 NASh...Andre Miller..you think he could do that with the teamates I just mentioned....don't be ridiculous... You think those passes he makes to Amare and Marion are caught by other fours and fives? You smoking kid those bounce passes below the knees are caught by one center in this league and a couple of PF's reliabley. those alleys are caught by VC...STRO SHOW...and that Sonics guy reliabley you gotta be a real athlete to get those reliabley and run the floor....Just as with Kidd withthe Nets it is not all NASH


The reason TJ Ford wasn't affective is the Raptors only have one front court athlete......watch TJ's communication with Rasho now it's much better and he gets three or four but replace Rasho and Garbahosa with two athletes and TJ would be killing withthe assists and the running game would be crazy......

[KWALI]

I do.

I have some counter-arguments, though. Remember the Showtime Lakers? Was Magic a 'result of the system'? Or was the system a result of Magic? Those lakers scored a lot of points, and I think we can all agree on one thing: Magic had better teammates than Nash has. Yet, nash's numbers this year are very well comparable to Magic's of the past, rebounding aside (but Magic was like half a foot taller).

Play the same game with Isiah, Bird or even Jordan. They made the system? The system made them? They all had better teammates than Nash has now. As far as accomplishments go, you will not win it all without good enough teammates, and you will never be 'accomplished' yourself if your TEAM fails to win it (all).

You can NEVER get accomplished as an individual, and you also can't make your team get the accomplishments for you if you are not a good enough individual. Hence the only thing Nash needs is 2 rings. It's not at all likely he will get them. But once he has (would)... you know the rest.

Glove 20 has done this 1000 times already but compare Nash with KEVIN JOHNSON pre Barkleyt in PHX......you'll find KEVIN JOHNSON did everything that Nash is doing now EVERYTHING....with comparable teamates DIaw --Tom Chambers....Hornacek ... Bell .....Thunder Dan...Marion.....

They aren't comparable in talants but in overall value very close....

So I don't see how Nash gets compared to Finals MVP's when ther closest comparision is a guy who never won an MVP and p[layed for the same team.....The argument should be is he better than KJ...when he gets past that then we can talk about Magic etc.......

Also consider the Lakers played much better teams than teh Suns do....compared to the competition Nash team is just as good as teh SHowtime lakers....

[yelk]

ppl cant ****ing read. the past doesnt count. EM said it. y would u compare nash to any player in the past? last 2 mvps could be the worst mvps in ur opinion, if ud like to call it, but it wouldnt change the fact that it was given to the player(nash) who desrved it the most among the candidates at that time. and nash having won the award twice and back to back doesnt make him any better than kj, stockton, bird or magic.

[Smokee]

theres no point to make people who dont watch believe. I GUARANTEE you if you watched Nash regularly most of you would believe in him or at least not be able to keep doubting him like i used to. Part of the problem is more than half of ISH doesnt watch games or alot of players play with any regularity, then theres the other part called being a hater.

anyway, Nash IS the best player in the league. Yeah i've WATCHED Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki, etc, etc. all play many times this year and nobody impresses or does more than Nash. All of you point to one shot in one game, or some stupid championship bull**** to measure a player when half that **** amounts to isolated incidents/luck. If you want reality, you watch them play from game to game, none of this stupid rings BS, or gamewinner buzzerbeaters actinig like things couldnt have gone either way. Reality is Nash, year after year, continues to prove the doubters wrong who keep doubting because they think no way is some lil white boy who runs up and down the court like a lil kid an MVP. too bad he is and deserves it more than anyone in the league today

[Number2]

Someone just sort of casually asserted that Nash isn't even a top ten PG yet... I mean, really? Let's name 10 better PGs in no particular order...

All right, Stockton, Magic, Thomas, Robertson (maybe a PG), Maravich (also a maybe), GP, Kidd, Hardaway and...? Who else? That's all I can come up with off the top of my head and many of those are debatable. Don't forget that Nash has been a top player for quite a while at his position and not just the sudden prodigy he's become with the Suns.

[Laker Logic]

bexause of this in 20 years people will look back and actually argue about who was better in their prime between Nash and Bird or Magic or Isiah.

No they won't, unless and until Nash leads Phoenix or some other team to a ring or rings. There's a reason they distinguish between regular season and Finals MVP's, and I don't really get why some people are so dead set against Nash winning regular season awards when he's so clearly the hub that the entire Suns system revolves around. Doesn't mean he's head and shoulders above other reg season MVP candidates but he's got as good a case as anyone else.

Some other points;

People arguing that Shaq should have won regular season MVP's for basically every season he's played obviously don't remember or didn't watch Shaq repeatedly coasting and saving himself in the regular season and saving his most dominant performances for the playoffs/finals. Even today some Heat fans (pre-injury) argued he was just saving himself for the postseason. As a Lakers fan I'm full aware of how much a healthy and assertive Shaq can mean to a team's success, but no one, including Shaq, is so valuable just by virtue of being on the floor that they should win an MVP just by being on the floor and passively creating opportunities for others. It should be an award for what a player actively does, and it's why Shaq doesn't have more regular season MVP's.

Yes, Nash is a system player, and no, that doesn't mean he shouldn't qualify for the MVP. Again, he pretty much is the system, and if you have a problem with that you can take solace that it's the same scoring-heavy, run and gun, shaky defense system that will continue to rack up regular season wins and continue to fall short in the postseason and prevent him from winning a chip or a Finals MVP. So relax, he's not on the Bird/Magic/Shaq level and no one, now or 20 years from now, will be confused into thinking otherwise. Let the guy rack up his regular season awards and flame out in the playoffs, there's really no harm in it.

[RidonKs]

Yes, Nash is a system player, and no, that doesn't mean he shouldn't qualify for the MVP. Again, he pretty much is the system, and if you have a problem with that you can take solace that it's the same scoring-heavy, run and gun, shaky defense system that will continue to rack up regular season wins and continue to fall short in the postseason and prevent him from winning a chip or a Finals MVP.

My sentiments exactly. Sure he thrives because of the system he's in, but does that mean the system should be taken out of the equation in his arguments for MVP? The obvious answer is no.

[Jailblazers7]

I see what people mean when they say he was the worst MVP and it will look ridiculous in the record book if he wins 3 straight MVP's. He is prob the worst player out of the past MVP winners and he can not compare to past multiple winners like Kareem, MJ, Magic, and Bird but that is irrelevant to this season. IF he is the best player this year then he deserves to win it regardless of the last two years. I dont feel he should have won it last year but he did so we should just put that behind us would it really be fair to not give it to him this year just because it would be his 3rd in a row even if he is the most deserving?

[Glove_20]

Nash isn't even a Top 10 PG of All-Time right now


Payton
Kidd
KJ
Stockton
Magic
Big O
Frazier
DJ
Isiah
Cousy


all have done more than Nash...Nash and MVP just don't go

[Jailblazers7]

Nash isn't even a Top 10 PG of All-Time right now


Payton
Kidd
KJ
Stockton
Magic
Big O
Frazier
DJ
Isiah
Cousy


all have done more than Nash...Nash and MVP just don't go

It doesnt matter what he ranks all-time it matter how he ranks this year.