MCU Avengers vs DCCU Superman

[MaxFly]

Someone wanna point out to me this no morals speed blitzing DCU superman and tell me how I missed him?

He did it in the comics vs The Elite... though he had morals on.

If he was no morals superman vs the justice league....he still didnt seriously injure anyone including a fully human batman who didnt even have the batman/superman power suit on.

He wasn't... just foggy.

The closest he comes to no morals is when he killed Zod but he was broken up about it. The no morals superman doesnt exist in the movies. And if thats the superman we are talking about....we are clearly giving him a hypothetical ruthless mindstate and assuming he does things he never actually does.

Morals were on... he killed Zod because he had no choice. Also, that was his first real fight. But we see what appears to be a no morals Superman in the nightmare scene Batman experiences.

So again....why doesnt the other side get the same credit? And plus....we are giving Superman pre existing knowledge of the gauntlet and its weaknesses?

No one is giving Superman knowledge of the gauntlet's weaknesses... simply it's power. The point was that Thanos should win in most scenarios against Superman as long as he has the gauntlet, but if Superman is aware of the gauntlet's power with the stones, Thanos would have far less leeway. That simply speaks to how powerful DCCU Superman is.

Let's forget the gauntlet for a second. What is MCU Thanos doing without the gauntlet in a matchup against DCCU Superman?

[highwhey]

Goku didn't create a galaxy. There are no stars, lol. It was his aura. It looks like a spiral galaxy.

In DB heroes, SSB Goku and Vegeta have shown to destroy a galaxy. But it's non canon. I haven't kept up with the Super manga, so I don't know if they have done this yet.

But Goku could beat current movie Superman. He could probably beat the DCAU Superman. Could beat a couple of comic version of Superman, but not all of them. Could beat new 52 Supes pre Doomsday Clock. Perhaps not current Supes, but I gott'a catch up reading on it.

But even then, Goku and Vegeta may have to go beyond SSJ1 to beat current movie Superman. Although striking power is different than lifting, Supes could lift more than SSJ1 Vegeta Super manga.

You see this ship?



This is could be the NoCGV Svalbard, which weighs about 6,375 tons. Supes doing this with ease on ice. And this building here:



Could be about 7000 tons.

So, at the very least, Supes could lift 7 times more than SSJ1 Vegeta while he struggled to lift 1000 tons. You can argue about the inconsistency and that they could lift more and I would agree. I think Goku while in ssb was able to move and do a kamehamha in small black hole in the tournament of power. I think the real answer to Goku's strength and stuff is that the creators don't really care about it that much for it make sense. Whatever makes it hype.

And with MCU Thanos, I dunno know if he could beat current movie Supes. W/o the gauntlet anyway. Supes could be stronger, and definitely is faster. I don't really know why they depowered Thanos that much in the movies, but he was still a force to be reckon with.

you realize Goku is way stronger in Super than SS1 right?

Goku: 3,000,000

Goku (SSJ1): 150,000,000

Frieza (100%): 120,000,000

Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku = 16,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = Octillion

Jiren (100%) = 10,800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 = Octillion

[highwhey]

i came through this video of spiderman meets the beyonder (cartoon).


man what ever happened to these awesome cartoons with a good plot. i mean, this had a philosophical component to it.

https://youtu.be/FvCimK4AsXE

[Micku]

you realize Goku is way stronger in Super than SS1 right?

Man, he's supposed to be way stronger as a SSJ1 in Super than he was when he fought Frieza yet him and Vegeta in the manga can't lift 1000 tons. Which makes no sense. Remember how Vegeta was doing 300Gs? If Vegeta weigh about 60 kgs or whatever and doing 300Gs, his body would weigh more than 150 tons. That's his base form. If you multiple it by x50 for SSJ1, he should be doing more than just 1000 tons.

Regardless, they have turn beyond just SSJ1 for movie Supes. Maybe SSJ2. I don't know or think they have to go SSB for movie Supes.

Comic book version, is another animal. MUI Goku is a beast. But it always depends on which version of Supes. Pre crisis Supes? All Star Supes? Post crisis? Superman 1 million? 52 Supes? Post Doomsday Clock/Rebirth Supes? DCAU Supes? Etc, etc.

And wait, they are still posting official power levels? I thought they been stopped since the Frieza saga?

i came through this video of spiderman meets the beyonder (cartoon).


man what ever happened to these awesome cartoons with a good plot. i mean, this had a philosophical component to it.

https://youtu.be/FvCimK4AsXE

The 90s ended

[highwhey]

Man, he's supposed to be way stronger as a SSJ1 in Super than he was when he fought Frieza yet him and Vegeta in the manga can't lift 1000 tons. Which makes no sense. Remember how Vegeta was doing 300Gs? If Vegeta weigh about 60 kgs or whatever and doing 300Gs, his body would weigh more than 150 tons. That's his base form. If you multiple it by x50 for SSJ1, he should be doing more than just 1000 tons.

Regardless, they have turn beyond just SSJ1 for movie Supes. Maybe SSJ2. I don't know or think they have to go SSB for movie Supes.

Comic book version, is another animal. MUI Goku is a beast. But it always depends on which version of Supes. Pre crisis Supes? All Star Supes? Post crisis? Superman 1 million? 52 Supes? Post Doomsday Clock/Rebirth Supes? DCAU Supes? Etc, etc.

And wait, they are still posting official power levels? I thought they been stopped since the Frieza saga?



The 90s ended

Not official estimates, more like based on video game power levels.

I still think that because Goke can dodge any attack with Full MUI while simultaneously attacking opponents, he can defeat thanos or superman.

All these arguments become silly when factoring in the most powerful characters in their respective universes.

I admit i have never read marvel comics so idk how deep their roster runs but I'm guessing they have thousands of characters.

The beyonder seems like an interesting character.

[Micku]

Not official estimates, more like based on video game power levels.

I still think that because Goke can dodge any attack with Full MUI while simultaneously attacking opponents, he can defeat thanos or superman.

All these arguments become silly when factoring in the most powerful characters in their respective universes.

I admit i have never read marvel comics so idk how deep their roster runs but I'm guessing they have thousands of characters.

The beyonder seems like an interesting character.

You should read some Marvel Comics dude. I dunno about the newer ones, I haven't checked them out since Civil War 2. I'm starting to read Immortal Hulk. But Old Man Logan is a badass story. Planet Hulk and World War Hulk are great. That's the Hulk at his best, and you don't really need to read any comics prior. Infinitely Gauntlet is awesome too. Thanos is way more powerful than his movie counter part with and without the gauntlet. When he uses the stones, there's no drawback. It's amazing how they even "defeat" him, lol.

I gott'a catch up to the Dragonball Super manga before the inevitable anime comes out.

Oooh. That arc of the 90s when Spiderman meets the Beyonder was cool too. Like prelude to the Secret Wars. I haven't read THAT version of the Secret Wars, but that is also a great read I heard. It was a good watch tho. Hopefully they'll do it in the movies, but it won't be the same without Spidy.

[Doctor K]

Same could be said going the other way. Nobody on Avengers team would know Superman's durability or abilities/powers. Why would Strange or Witch even target Superman from the get-go or Avengers even feel the need to put Hulk, Thor and/or Captain Marvel on Strange/Witch guard duty to protect from Superman/Flash/Shazam/Wonder-woman? They don't know Superman is weak to magic either.

Justice League can figure out quickly who the magic users are based on their opening attacks so they can quickly gauge who to go after. Chances of Avengers figuring out Superman is weak to magic and to go after him first after just the opening act are slim to none. By the time they figure it out, half the Avengers would probably be dead.

Well if its just Superman like the OP and thread title, my entire post still totally applies. Superman gets stomped. His chances of winning < 10% if he doesn't go for Dr. Strange 1st while all the Avengers gang up on him.

As for the entire JL, honestly there are too many of them, aside from Superman they all get stomped while Superman can't finish off Thor really. Thor has been shown to be more durable than anything Superman can throw at him. Thor/Hulk should keep Superman busy while the others just get outnumbered and slowly destroyed.

I mean just think about it, any damage even done by Superman to Thor/Hulk or by the entire JL, Dr. Strange can quickly use his time stone and reverse it and in fact he can control time to such a degree that Superman's "speed" advantages will not even be there if Strange does what he wants

[Doctor K]

I wouldn't say that 99/100 Avengers would prevail. All of them are weaker than their comic book counterpart except for Captain America and maybe Capt Marvel? Supes is too, but he still have too many powers and near invincibility to make most of the Avengers useless against him. It's only like three-five members that could harm him. Thor, Capt Marvel, Hulk (if angry enough), and Strange? Maybe Vision? Scarlet Witch could slow him down, but apparently she'll be more closer to her comic book counter part in the new Strange movie.

With Thor with stormbreaker, I dunno if it could cut Supes. But I suppose so, given the dwarven magic, and it took a full beam of the infinity stones and cut Thanos.

However, I dunno if Thanos is more durable than Supes in the MCU. It doesn't seem like it since Spider and Capt could get Thanos to stagger a little bit with their attacks. Inconsistent writing maybe, but y'know. Supes wouldn't feel it.

With Capt Marvel, I dunno. Perhaps. There is a difference between travel speed and combat speed. She never really moved faster than anyone could react in combat. She never displayed almost like time stopping speed like Flash and Quicksilver. Superman did that. Like Ironman could move faster than sound in flight. But he can't fight as fast and he doesn't have that type of reaction time.

In her binary state, maybe she could deal with him? Need another movie to really say. She did take a headbutt from Thanos like it was nothing, and he kicked the Hulk's ass. Supes could be the same tho.

Not to say the Avengers can't beat Supes tho. If stormbreaker could cut Supes, all they need to do is get one good hit in. And Doctor Strange could trap him. But Supes biggest advantage is that he's too fast. Combine that with him probably stronger than anybody in the MCU, and durability that might be tougher than Thanos then it's hard to really beat him.

Like Wonder Woman reaction time is really good. She could react to bullets as if they were slow motion. And she could move at super sonic speed. Superman made Wonder Woman look super slow.

So, it just depends. As I said before, they really should not be able to hit Superman. He's too fast. And is strong enough to really one shot all the non heavy hitters. Only a few heroes could take a hit, but not for long. If they can't touch Quicksilver or the Flash, they won't be able to touch Superman. What good is the lighting from Thor if Supes just sidesteps away, run super fast up to your face, and poke your eyeballs out before you even realize what happened? Or give you a good few body shots and a upper cut? It would never happen that way cuz nobody writes like that. I don't wann'a give a number on it of the chances.

Lets say if ALL the avengers were there, in a middle of a city. I would say, it depends on who makes the first move. I would say probably the Hulk. He's the most wild and loose. Hulk would try to punch him, Superman may tank it for a bit before he punches the Hulk away or punches him to space. Unless it's professor Hulk then it might be Thor, IM or Capt Marvel.

If superman makes the first move, it just depends on who he targets. I would imagine it would his heat vision or his cold breath. But again, if Strange gets him in the mirror dimension, it's over. Time stone? It's over. If the stormbreaker could cut through Supes and if they find a way to catch him off guard or he believes he could tank it, it's over.

If this was comic version Marvel, then it would be Thor, Hulk, and Strange would be the biggest threats.

I mean you're acting like Superman has never been tagged. He's so fast no one can even touch him? That's just totally false lol. He has been tagged so many tims in all his movies. And just 1 tag and he could be done in this fight. We are talking about their cinematic versions. The "bloodlusted" Superman we saw fighting the JL was getting tagged by everyone. Even wonder woman got a headbutt in against him. Yes he could just move at super fast speeds the whole time except he has NEVER done that lol.

Literally all the Avengers despite how slow they are WILL tag Superman. That's just how it goes. Wanda will tag him, Vision will fire his stone at him, Ironman will fire his power at him, Thor will hit him with lightning, all together, it will look like that scene in Age of Ultron where all the Avengers are tagging Ultron together, and then Strange will finish Superman off. The end.

And even if Superman decided to move at full speed (like he never has), Strange can slow him down by slowing down time for him and literally make his "speed" useless.


Bottomline, if Superman or JL doesn't take out Strange 1st, they are literally screwed. And the probability of that is low without knowledge. Even without Strange Avengers will hold their own. With Strange they will win almost every time. Captain Marvel and Thor have shown higher durability to any power Superman has ever outputted.

[Kblaze8855]

Lol, read for me the last things that Watcher says in that panel?





Lol, what is MCU Thanos, without the gauntlet, going to be able to accomplish against DCCU Superman. We've seen both their abilities and power levels. Thanos is going to desperately need the gauntlet to win... it's his crutch... that's pretty evident.

Without doing a squirrel girl deep dive let me just say....

They wrote it that way trying to prevent a future retcon showing it was a clone and they still found a way around it. When it got out of hand they fixed a lot of her "feats" with simple explanations. Thanos later mentioned that his clones have become so advanced they can fool even "The most cosmic of beings" for just this reason and Spidermans claim she stalemated Galactus was explained by saying she did not fight him....she befriended him and he spared the earth as a favor to her and like...took her on adventures. I dont however think they ever explained away her defeat of Dr.Doom, Wolverine, Galactus' herald Terrax or Ego the living planet. A teenager with the power of a Squirrel defeated a planet.

She is literally a joke character not worth talking about anymore.....though people on comic book fantasy sites insist. She was once listed as a 7 out of 7 in all power categories on Marvels official site making her slightly more powerful than Odin and roughly on par with Galactus. Its a joke. I think we can both admit that.




Far as no gauntlet Thanos vs superman....who knows. Once Batman had him down and at his mercy with a stolen fist sized bit of rock I wouldnt put it past Thanos who I suspect wouldnt be on a planet with a yellow sun for the fight to begin with. Stark wasnt the only one "Cursed with knowledge" as he put it. And as long as your argument rests on shit he didnt do in the movies(the speed blitz you reference did not happen on film...ever)...and you go with:

He did it in the comics vs The Elite... though he had morals on.

You open a whole other world. Comic book Thanos even without the gauntlet is a lot of things that would be a problem for Superman. Magical, telepathatic, a lot smarter than Batman, Luthor, or Tony Stark plus generally barred from death by....Death itself who cursed him to live. Hes like superman in that he doesnt go all out(though for different reasons) so it would depend on whos stupitidy cost them first. Superman always holds back til he cant avoid it and Thanos holds back even when hes god to make fights interesting.

With knowledge of Supermans abilities he wouldnt be much of a threat to a prepared thanos who would likely just stay near red suns or drag a chunk of Krypton the size of Madagascar around with his ship.

On equal footing....equal knowledge of eachother? Id like to think Superman would know not to bullshit and Thanos would know to be ready. When a prepared Batman can kill superman I wouldnt imagine Thanos has trouble when he has an actual space ship and ability to fight in solar systems where Superman would be a normal human.

As always it would come down to the writer.

There are established reasons either one could win though. Superman being a moron forever losing to brilliant normal humans with no backup I wouldnt bet on him in film or comic form. Of course they would write it so he wins....thats how comic book movies go. But hed do it like he always does. The other side being made idiots by the plot even more than hes made an idiot by his nature.

[MaxFly]

Without doing a squirrel girl deep dive let me just say....

They wrote it that way trying to prevent a future retcon showing it was a clone and they still found a way around it. When it got out of hand they fixed a lot of her "feats" with simple explanations. Thanos later mentioned that his clones have become so advanced they can fool even "The most cosmic of beings" for just this reason and Spidermans claim she stalemated Galactus was explained by saying she did not fight him....she befriended him and he spared the earth as a favor to her and like...took her on adventures. I dont however think they ever explained away her defeat of Dr.Doom, Wolverine, Galactus' herald Terrax or Ego the living planet. A teenager with the power of a Squirrel defeated a planet.

She is literally a joke character not worth talking about anymore.....though people on comic book fantasy sites insist. She was once listed as a 7 out of 7 in all power categories on Marvels official site making her slightly more powerful than Odin and roughly on par with Galactus. Its a joke. I think we can both admit that.

When people talk about Superman vs Thanos, and cite Superman falling down stairs and crying, you're going to get panels of Thanos being beaten by Squirrel Girl and flying around in his Thanos copter (because he can't fly and has pretty average super powered speed). It's all jokes, but Thanos himself is often a joke character.

Far as no gauntlet Thanos vs superman....who knows. Once Batman had him down and at his mercy with a stolen fist sized bit of rock I wouldnt put it past Thanos who I suspect wouldnt be on a planet with a yellow sun for the fight to begin with. Stark wasnt the only one "Cursed with knowledge" as he put it. And as long as your argument rests on shit he didnt do in the movies(the speed blitz you reference did not happen on film...ever)...and you go with:

So it sounds like we're in agreement that MCU Thanos, without his trusty gauntlet, would get put down by DCCU Superman... even the extremely nice, congenial, smiley version of Superman, pretty quickly. And I agree... it would be in Thanos' best interest to never step foot on earth given that reality. Now, in the comics and other media, we've seen Superman travel to other planets without yellow suns and operate at full or near full power for extended periods of time. He has put down some very powerful opponents on other planets under different suns. I don't think they've addressed how long he can remain powered in the DCCU, but he fought Doomsday for a lengthy amount of time at night, after being dosed with kryptonite repeatedly. I'm willing to bet this version of Superman would be ok on another planet tossing Thanos around as well. It's not like he would need much time, right... lol

I'm not sure what the argument is in regard to Superman's speed. We've seen his speed; he's so fast that at the end of the JL movie, he and Flash were getting ready to have a race to see who was faster (flash is faster), and we know flash is extremely fast. Are we really saying that DCCU Superman is incapable of closing the distance between MCU Thanos and himself before Thanos acts? Again, Thanos should be able to win with the gauntlet, but it's not an automatic victory given Superman's abilities. That should be evident by what we've seen of their abilities in their respective universes.

[Kblaze8855]

Darkseid fell down stairs and cried not Superman but the point is the same. It’s a stupid joke panel that nobody not trolling should even bring up.

And Thanos can fly but I guess it depends on your separation of flight vs being able to levitate with telekinesis. He certainly doesn’t fly like Superman does.

Far as a no gauntlet fight once Batman has him at his mercy through preparing and doomsday killed him by straight stabbing it’s clear he can be killed by both smarts and brute strength and when Thanos is smarter than Batman(he’s invented shit along the lines of Reed Richards level) and stronger than the hulk it’s a tossup. The speed blitz shit is just pulling from comics with no basis in the films. Once we go there Thanos has a lot more to play with including magic and immortality.

Superman has never used his powers effectively. For someone who has all these arguments based on how fast he can move he certainly gets punched a lot And hit with every beam somebody shoots at him. He was essentially made too powerful and he fights like a moron because of it. If you were going to have him fight like he does in literally every incarnation including steppenWolf he can lose to a great many people and would definitely lose to Thanos with the gauntlet because every single time you’ve seen him fight somebody in a movie he failed to put them down quickly.

That punch then stand there smugly shit gets the universe ended vs thanos. And if we give him advanced knowledge and Thanos the same he’d be at an even greater disadvantage. Why would thanos not just stop time?

[Kblaze8855]

Though again to be fair while superman fights like a moron Thanos fights like a narcissist and let people hang around just like Superman does. Neither of them would win this fight. One would just lose by a little bit less. It

[Micku]

I mean you're acting like Superman has never been tagged. He's so fast no one can even touch him? That's just totally false lol. He has been tagged so many tims in all his movies. And just 1 tag and he could be done in this fight. We are talking about their cinematic versions. The "bloodlusted" Superman we saw fighting the JL was getting tagged by everyone. Even wonder woman got a headbutt in against him. Yes he could just move at super fast speeds the whole time except he has NEVER done that lol.

Literally all the Avengers despite how slow they are WILL tag Superman. That's just how it goes. Wanda will tag him, Vision will fire his stone at him, Ironman will fire his power at him, Thor will hit him with lightning, all together, it will look like that scene in Age of Ultron where all the Avengers are tagging Ultron together, and then Strange will finish Superman off. The end.

And even if Superman decided to move at full speed (like he never has), Strange can slow him down by slowing down time for him and literally make his "speed" useless.


Bottomline, if Superman or JL doesn't take out Strange 1st, they are literally screwed. And the probability of that is low without knowledge. Even without Strange Avengers will hold their own. With Strange they will win almost every time. Captain Marvel and Thor have shown higher durability to any power Superman has ever outputted.

Yeah. I feel like it's just due to....bad writing for lack of a better word. They never have use his power to the fullest. I suppose the in universe reason is that Supes don't have the mindset to do that. He doesn't fight smart. He ain't no Batman.

Like when Lex Luthor kidnap Supes mom in BvS. He really doesn't need Batman's help. He could just pretended to go fight Bats, but just fly super fast around world, listen to his mom's heartbeat, go in there save her, go back and wack Lex unconscious.

And even bloodlusted Supes in the Justice League didn't go all out against Bats. He could've killed him with almost anything. Could've killed the Flash. Could've killed all of them. The reason the writers don't do all that stuff is because of drama. Like I dunno if you read Tower of Babel before in DC where Flash got hit by a tree trunk from I think a throw from Wonder Woman. That shit is inconsistent due to Flash reaction time. The dude is suppsoed to react to a zeptosecond. 0.000000000000000000001 seconds. He shouldn't get hit by a tree trunk or potentially anything that isn't super fast...at all.

Supes and Flash just get hit for drama sake, but this the same across fictional stories.

But if we are talking about all out Supes? Full potential Supes? Even in the movies? Supes shouldn't get hit. Just for the simple fact that he could keep up with Flash, both reaction time and speed. Nobody in the MCU could react like that, except for Quicksilver.

The Avengers could beat Supes with Strange and Scarlet if she could hold him. Thor could slice him if it works. Like Strange has enough tricks to deal with Supes as long as he is distracted. There are different scenario where Supes beats them too tho. He has the capability to do so. And the fact that he could just solo them all, it's pretty crazy on itself. There's definitely more than one scenario where Supes win.

But imo, it shows a little bit how underpowered some of the heroes are in MCU compared to their comic book counterpart. But even then, only a few heroes really could deal damage to him.