Jordan and Kareem: Playoff Defeats as Alpha

[dankok8]

They added Mychal Thompson though if I remember. And Ronnie Brewer, both high draft picks.

Yes they had Mychal that year.

It's a stretch, but there are a lot of similarities, especially the three man back court and the depth up front. Pistons team had more veteran guys though, I'd say they were more talented man for man too, battle tested and they faced much stiffer competition.

They aren't as good as the Pistons but they are an overlooked team all-time. They were very balanced, very rough, very defensive. I think the Bad Boys analogy is pretty good since neither team had a top 5 MVP candidate.

I'm not one to sell the Sonics short, but let's not exaggerate how good they were as Kareem backers often seem to do.

The Lakers were favored in the '78 and '79 series according to Sports Illustrated. This could reflect the flow of money moving towards them, but the teams were very close in terms of W/L record each year and they split each regular season series 2-2. Additionally the Sonics played the best they had ever played during the 1980 season and the Lakers, having swapped Robish/Boone/Wilkes/Hudson for Chones/Magic/Cooper in the rotation made short work of them.

I don't think rookie Magic Johnson, aging Jim Chones and essentially rookie Michael Cooper are a significant talent up grade over an all-NBA and all-ABA combo past their primes in Hudson/Boone and a future scoring champion in Dantley.

To me the difference between the '79 and '80 Lakers was chemistry, which Magic brought naturally, they fir together better and made a huge jump.

The '78 and '79 Lakers teams had more talent man for man than anyone in the league. The were not the best team, but they were good enough to beat anyone.

Saying that every team Kareem played against was better than their record and every team Kareem played on was worse than the record is not a valid point in my opinion.

As usual I'll try to makes this clear, I'm not blaming Kareem for them losing, but I'm giving him credit for "almost winning" because he played so great. There is a quote out there about the '77 series vs. the Blazers where Kareem says, "The Blazers had a great series, Walton had a great series, I had a great series, but the Lakers had a poor series" that's not exact, but it's true to the spirit of the comment. While all of the things Kareem said are true, if I were his teammate I'd be pissed. The fact that Kareem's teammates never connected with him and vice versa has a lot to do with his lack of team success in the 70's post Oscar and pre-Magic. One more time, not blaming Kareem, but writing him a list of excuses either.

Lakers got killed by the Sonics because of rebounding...

78-79 Lakers

Regular Season

-3.27 rebounds per game (21st of 22)
ORB% of 27.6% (22nd of 22)
DRB% of 66.5% (14th of 22)

Kareem averaged 12.8 rebounds per game (T-2nd) and 17.6 TRB% (11th) in the league.

Playoffs

Overall

ORB% of 21.4% (12th of 12 and by far the worst in the league)
DRB% of 62.9% (8th of 12)

vs. Nuggets

-7.33 rebounds per game

vs. Sonics

-13.2 rebounds per game

Kareem averaged 12.6 rebounds per game (4th) and 15.5 TRB% (top 15) in the league.
Against the Sonics Kareem averaged 12.2 rebounds per game.

79-80 Lakers

Regular Season

+2.24 rebounds per game (5th of 22)
ORB% of 23.6% (14th out of 22)
DRB% of 66.9% (10th of 22)

Kareem averaged 10.8 rebounds per game (8th) and 15.4 TRB% (T-20th) in the league.

Playoffs

Overall

ORB% of 38.2% (1st of 12)
DRB% of 72.1% (1st of 12)

vs. Suns

+10.4 rebounds per game

vs. Sonics

+3.8 rebounds per game

vs. Sixers

+14.2 rebounds per game

Kareem averaged 12.1 rebounds per game (2nd) and 15.7 TRB% (8th) in the league.
Against the Sonics Kareem averaged 11.6 rebounds per game.

The 1979 Lakers got outrebounded by 13.2 rebounds per game by Seattle while the 1980 Lakers won the battle by 3.8 rebounds per game. That's the biggest reason although lack of perimeter defense and poor chemistry didn't help either.

[LAZERUSS]

I have said it before, but swap rosters with KAJ and Walton in '77, and very likely Kareem wins another ring. And it would have been Walton on the receiving end of a sweep in the WCF's.

[Hey Yo]

So young, raw Jordan sans any legit, trust worthy help pre 1990 was basically only getting beat by 60+ win, in many cases ... all-time GOAT level basketball teams? Interesting. Basically whenver Mike had good enough help, he was winning championships. As underdogs, or favorites.

MJ was getting beat by 60 win teams because he couldn't get his team higher than an 8th seed.

#1 seeds usually beat #8 seeds. Regardless who's on the 8th seed.

Not a secret.

[DatAsh]

Like that Walton was better than Kareem in 1977 and 1978

Apart from offensive box score stats, what is it - in your opinion - about the notion of 77 Walton over 77 Kareem that seems so unreasonable?

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ was getting beat by 60 win teams because he couldn't get his team higher than an 8th seed.

#1 seeds usually beat #8 seeds. Regardless who's on the 8th seed.

Not a secret.

Exactly. I love how that is overlooked.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Exactly. I love how that is overlooked.

It's not overlooked. He had absolute shit of a supporting cast until the 1989 season when Pippen began coming into his own more, thanks to playing along side Mike everyday in practice.

We're attempting to knock him for his team's record as a rookie, a sophomore who missed most of the season, and as a 3rd year player with no help?



MJ led the Bulls to a 50 - 32 record in the '88 season with Sam Vincent, Charles Oakley, and Dave Corzine as his next best players. And super geen rookie Pippen off the bench.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's the knock on him. How many times were the other GOAT candidates going in with #8 seeds even with poor teams around them?

It is interesting MJ fans invoke his team to explain his defeats--but don't do this with other legends--and ignore the team when it comes to MJ's success.

MJ led the Bulls to a 50 - 32 record in the '88 season with Sam Vincent, Charles Oakley, and Dave Corzine as his next best players. And super geen rookie Pippen off the bench.

Yeah--and the Bulls were on their way to choking against a 42 win team in the first round until super green Pippen made his first career start, had a big game and helped the Bulls win in a close game. The Bulls also started the next year 13-12; Pippen played 25 minutes in his first start, they lost, but then promptly went on a 9-2 roll. The rest is history. The Bulls never looked back just as the Lakers did not after 1980.

It is a legitimate point that MJ had a weak team around him, although he did have a 20+ ppg second option in Woolridge his first two years. The knock is that he didn't lift them much. 27 wins to 38 wins as a rookie, 9-9 in his second year and 40-42 in his third. By his third year he was #2 in MVP voting.

Does this matter, though? Not really. The reason people bring it up is MJ stans invoke "he never lost with HCA" and use that against other legends. While it can be argued that he never lost to a superior team, it can also be fairly argued he didn't elevate bad teams past their natural level as much as other legends. In other words, he wasn't getting HCA with bad teams in the first place.

My personal view is MJ needed to learn how to win and learn how to play within a team concept. This is where Jackson and Pippen were key. MJ as an old geezer in Washington improved a 19 win team to 0.500 ball. He also had a major impact on the 95' Bulls fresh from the baseball diamond. Why couldn't MJ with fresh legs do it early in his career then? He didn't know how to play within a team. To his credit, he learned to, with key assists from Jackson, Pippen and Tex Winter (it is no coincidence Chicago's first title came the first year they implemented the triangle offense and the first year Pippen, who became the team's primary ballhandler, led the team in assists. Both changes reduced the time the ball was in MJ's hands and generated more ball movement and kept other players involved in the game.). The rest is history.

[juju151111]

That's the knock on him. How many times were the other GOAT candidates going in with #8 seeds even with poor teams around them?

It is interesting MJ fans invoke his team to explain his defeats--but don't do this with other legends--and ignore the team when it comes to MJ's success.



Yeah--and the Bulls were on their way to choking against a 42 win team in the first round until super green Pippen made his first career start, had a big game and helped the Bulls win in a close game. The Bulls also started the next year 13-12; Pippen played 25 minutes in his first start, they lost, but then promptly went on a 9-2 roll. The rest is history. The Bulls never looked back just as the Lakers did not after 1980.

It is a legitimate point that MJ had a weak team around him, although he did have a 20+ ppg second option in Woolridge his first two years. The knock is that he didn't lift them much. 27 wins to 38 wins as a rookie, 9-9 in his second year and 40-42 in his third. By his third year he was #2 in MVP voting.

Does this matter, though? Not really. The reason people bring it up is MJ stans invoke "he never lost with HCA" and use that against other legends. While it can be argued that he never lost to a superior team, it can also be fairly argued he didn't elevate bad teams past their natural level as much as other legends. In other words, he wasn't getting HCA with bad teams in the first place.

My personal view is MJ needed to learn how to win and learn how to play within a team concept. This is where Jackson and Pippen were key. MJ as an old geezer in Washington improved a 19 win team to 0.500 ball. He also had a major impact on the 95' Bulls fresh from the baseball diamond. Why couldn't MJ with fresh legs do it early in his career then? He didn't know how to play within a team. To his credit, he learned to, with key assists from Jackson, Pippen and Tex Winter (it is no coincidence Chicago's first title came the first year they implemented the triangle offense and the first year Pippen, who became the team's primary ballhandler, led the team in assists. Both changes reduced the time the ball was in MJ's hands and generated more ball movement and kept other players involved in the game.). The rest is history.

The only reason the bulls didn't win earlier is because they were freaking garbage it's that simple. Mj never lost with HCA and sometimes won without it. It's a fact Mj lost to 60 win teams. Don't spin it no other way. Pippen and the other Bulls just wasn't ready. The Pistons players said has much. 89 and 90 where was Pip.