Jordan and Kareem: Playoff Defeats as Alpha

[G.O.A.T]

Michael Jordan - Playoff Series Defeats as Alpha

1985 - First Round - Milwaukee Bucks (59-23) - Three games to one - Bulls Record: 38-44 - Jordan averages: 29/6/9/3/1 on 44/83 - #2 guy: O. Woolridge 20-3-2-2 on 50/79

1986 - First Round - Boston Celtics (68-14) - Three games to none - Bulls Record: 32-50 (9-9 with MJ) - Jordan averages: 44/6/6/2/1 on 51/87 - #2 guy: O. Woolridge 21-5-1-1 on 40/87

1987 - First Round - Boston Celtics (59-23) - Three games to none - Bulls Record: 32-50 (9-9 with MJ) - Jordan averages: 36/7/6/2/2 on 42/90 - #2 guy: C. Oakley 20-15-2-1 on 38/83

1988 - Conference Semis - Detroit Pistons (54-28) - Four games to one - Bulls Record: 50-32 - Jordan averages: 27/9/5/2/1 on 49/79 - #2 guy: C. Oakley 9-12-3 on 41/93

1989 - Conference Finals - Detroit Pistons (63-19) - Four games to two - Bulls Record 47-35 - Jordan averages: 30/6/7/2/1 on 46/24/76 - #2 guy: H. Grant 9-9-2-1 on 50/82

1990 - Conference Finals - Detroit Pistons (59-23) - Four games to three - Bulls Record 55-27 - Jordan averages: 32/7/6/2/1 on 47/29/88 - #2 guy: S. Pippen 17/6/4/2/1 on 43/30/75

1995 - Conference Semis - Orlando Magic (57-25) - Four games to two - Bulls Record 47-35 (13-4 with MJ) - Jordan averages: 31/7/4/3/2 on 48/23/80 - #2 guy: S. Pippen 19/10/6/1/1 on 41/35/69

Average Opponent Record: 60-22
Average Bulls Record: 43-39
Opponents who advanced to Finals: 6/7
Opponents who won NBA Title: 3/7
Record Facing Elimination: 2-7
Series with HCA: zero
Jordan

[SMoKe0uT]

who cares? is this some kinda bait thread?

[atljonesbro]

What agenda are you trying to push? I thought eye test = god and stats are 4 nerdz

[riseagainst]

dam, teams that beat MJ and the Bulls averaged 60 wins.

[G.O.A.T]

Point?

This is hilarious.. Listing a bunch of stats and record that in the end seem totally irrelevant

Probably a lot of work put in this but I really don't see why

It's been a topic of discussion in other threads and I had some research on it.

No hidden message here just information for the people who are interested in it.

What agenda are you trying to push? I thought eye test = god and stats are 4 nerdz

No idea what you're talking about

who cares? is this some kinda bait thread?

Yes, I'm trying to bait people into a discussion.

[riseagainst]

OP could you do one for Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, etc

[SMoKe0uT]

It's been a topic of discussion in other threads and I had some research on it.

No hidden message here just information for the people who are interested in it.

ok? but really its meaningless, its nearly a wash.

[ArbitraryWater]

OP could you do one for Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron, Shaq, etc

Why? This is horribly pointless and won't tell you anything... There is a bunch of context to be aplied as each situation is different, circumstances, opponent, team mates, etc.

I dig the effort, but from the OP, don't really see anything to take away from, besides that maybe Kareem pushed his teams to greater regular season success.

[Roundball_Rock]

I dig the effort, but from the OP, don't really see anything to take away from, besides that maybe Kareem pushed his teams to greater regular season success.

Yeah. KAJ posted only one losing season in his 20 year career--and that was a 40-42 season after the Lakers gave an all-star, a 16/11 player, the #2 drafted player and the #8 drafted player (in that year's draft) to acquire him. The Bucks did go 38-44 one season, but that is because they went 3-14 without him so KAJ had a 35-30 record.

[G.O.A.T]

Why? This is horribly pointless and won't tell you anything... There is a bunch of context to be aplied as each situation is different, circumstances, opponent, team mates, etc.

I dig the effort, but from the OP, don't really see anything to take away from, besides that maybe Kareem pushed his teams to greater regular season success.

Let everyone decide what they think is pointless. and as for the bold, unless you're goal is push Kareem over Jordan that should not be what you take away from this.

[G.O.A.T]

Yeah. KAJ posted only one losing season in his 20 year career--and that was a 40-42 season after the Lakers gave an all-star, a 16/11 player, the #2 drafted player and the #8 drafted player (in that year's draft) to acquire him. The Bucks did go 38-44 one season, but that is because they went 3-14 without him so KAJ had a 35-30 record.

I think a big part of the reason for Kareem's Bucks having such great records is the era. Expansion really weakened the league. The Bucks/Lakers/Knicks all had insane winning streaks in 70, 71 and 72. The top teams in the league were winning a ton of games compared to later in the decade and after the merger. We saw the same thing in the 90's after that round of expansion.

It's not that Kareem wasn't great, he obviously was, and those teams were very good, though they lacked great depth, but I don't think they were as dominant as their record suggests. That's why, in my opinion Kareem has lost so much more with HCA than MJ. His teams were good enough, and the situation was just right, to win more games than the should have in the regular season.

[ArbitraryWater]

Let everyone decide what they think is pointless. and as for the bold, unless you're goal is push Kareem over Jordan that should not be what you take away from this.

*your

[G.O.A.T]

^Speaking of pointless.

I'll look for the ones I have on Bird and Magic and Wilt and Shaq

[Roundball_Rock]

Great points. I have never heard that theory expressed before but it makes sense. We have seen with the contemporary Bulls that often a team can overachieve in the regular season and then fall short relative to their record in the playoffs. In 2011 they had 62 wins and the best record but were demolished by the Heat in the ECF. In 2012 they won at a 55-56 win pace without Rose (67 win pace with him) but promptly dropped 4 out of 5 games without Rose against the #8 seeded Sixers in the playoffs. In 2013 they won 45 games to place 5th, actually won the 4/5 series in a 7 game series and then were crushed by the Heat in the ECSF. In 2014 they tied for 3rd in the conference with 48 wins, got the #4 seed but the Wizards beat them comfortably. So only in 2013 did they really perform on par with what their record suggests.

29/15/4/1/3 on 52/73

I think this illustrates how people put too much stock in team achievements. Other than 73' KAJ was doing his part every year. If he was a notorious, consistently poor playoff performer like David Robinson and Karl Malone that would be something else but KAJ showed up, usually raised his scoring and rebounding in the playoffs.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan never losing with HCA is crazy.