Time Of Possession Stats For Players

[tamaraw08]

Lebron 2018 finals: 11.5
#

Single handedly lost that series for Cleveland. No team will ever win with one guy just holding the ball for the first 20 shot clock seconds.

Again, most of you Lebron haters have repeatedly ignored this fact.
That Cavs team had a ORTG of 108.5, you guys know what ORTG means right?
now compare the ORTG of MJ's finals teams and guess which teams were more productive.
I am not saying Lebron is perfect and that he has no weaknesses. A bad defender, bad midrange game etc etc.
This crap idea that holding the ball too long is killing a team's offensive flow etc contradicts to the results. Harden's and Lebron's teams were always in the top 5 in offensive efficiency.

[ronniec]

Again, most of you Lebron haters have repeatedly ignored this fact.
That Cavs team had a ORTG of 108.5, you guys know what ORTG means right?
now compare the ORTG of MJ's finals teams and guess which teams were more productive.
I am not saying Lebron is perfect and that he has no weaknesses. A bad defender, bad midrange game etc etc.
This crap idea that holding the ball too long is killing a team's offensive flow etc contradicts to the results. Harden's and Lebron's teams were always in the top 5 in offensive efficiency.

Yes, I agree that this type of basketball is efficient, but only benefits Lebron and Harden.

Their teammates all got waved off and WAITING for things to happen.

For both Lakers and Rockets, I'd prefer to see Rondo and CP3 handling the ball more and the offense is generated by them instead of Lebron and Harden.
There are more ball movement, more players get involved and touches.
More fun to watch of course.

[tamaraw08]

Yes, I agree that this type of basketball is efficient, but only benefits Lebron and Harden.

Their teammates all got waved off and WAITING for things to happen.

For both Lakers and Rockets, I'd prefer to see Rondo and CP3 handling the ball more and the offense is generated by them instead of Lebron and Harden.
There are more ball movement, more players get involved and touches.
More fun to watch of course.

And yes I agree. I also would prefer Rondo handling the ball and Ray Allen coming off screens from Perkins etc. I would also preferred MJ and Kobe not to take 28 shots/game and instead set up their teammates more....
but you can't argue with results. Their teams were were producing at a high rate. Lebron's current team looked like trash because he's success is tied in with 3pt accuracy.

[ronniec]

And yes I agree. I also would prefer Rondo handling the ball and Ray Allen coming off screens from Perkins etc. I would also preferred MJ and Kobe not to take 28 shots/game and instead set up their teammates more....
but you can't argue with results. Their teams were were producing at a high rate. Lebron's current team looked like trash because he's success is tied in with 3pt accuracy.

MJ and Kobe taking more shots than their teammates because they were shooting guards and they were satisfied as being a SG.
They did not label themselves and had the burden of "ability to play 1-5 and guard 1-5".
They were SG, their main job was to shoot and score.
They did not pass more or possess the ball more, not that they could not. They played under a system, the triangle offense.

Producing at a high rate in regular is one thing, able to produce a high rate in playoff is another.
You may win a couple of rings by playing Bron-ball or Harden-ball, but team ball wins most of the time.
Also, Harden doesn't have much success in the playoff at all.

[3ball]

The time of possession stats are back? ... this is the stat that exposes his game and explains 3/9.. I'm going in

I hear Lebron fans claiming that lebron isn't #1 in time of possession, or that kyrie had higher time of possession

You're missing the point

Lebron's pg-level time of possession (5+ minutes) gives his team 2 point guards - 2 players with pg-level time of possession.. lebron/kyrie and lebron/chalmers BOTH brought the ball up the court and were the ball-handler in screen rolls

This is a problem because it reduces ball-time and assists for the other 3 teammates compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups.. lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assist rankings.

Contrastingly, magic and ben simmons started at PG, and their 1-pg lineup allowed high team assist rankings.. but 2-pg lineups (lebron/harden/doncic-ball) give the remaining 3 teammates less time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups, which results in low TEAM assist rankings.. it's harder to win with low ball movement and low assist teams, especially in the championship round, so 3/9 happens (1/9 without ray and kyrie shots)

And doncic is like lebron by NOT starting at PG, and but then becoming a 2nd PG on the floor (2nd player with a PG time of possession)... so I'm selling some of my doncic "stock" right now, because I know his teams will fall short at the championship level like lebron's unless he starts at PG or develops an off-ball game (lowers his time of possession).. I'm still very high on doncic individually (maybe he's the next bird), but his teams will struggle to win rings like lebron's because his game is too ball-dominant for a non-PG position

Btw, guys like Blake and Derozan also have 5+ minutes time of possession as non-PG's.. I'm not sure if they bring the ball up, but the concept is the same - their high time of possession gives their team 2 on-court players with high time of possession, reducing time and assist opportunity for teammates and the team.. indeed, the Pistons rank 27th in assists and the Spurs system ranks only 12th, or below their standard in the kawhi/duncan years

In addition to the time of possession stat, a player's assisted rate (how much teammates assist them) is another way to gauge a player's ball-dominance... PG's usually score on their own via live dribble and accordingly, have low assisted rates (20-30%).. every other position has high assisted rates of varying degrees (45-75%).. accordingly, guys like doncic, lebron, and harden turn a high-assisted position (sg or forward) into a low-assisted one (a 2nd pg), thereby lowering the assist capacity of the team relative to 1-pg lineups on other teams.. and it's intuitive - ball-dominance kills ball movement, so having 2 guys with pg-level ball-dominance results in weaker ball movement and teams

Currently, the teams in the league with 2-pg lineups (or 2 guys with pg-level time of possession, 5+ min) all rank low in assists: Lakers (lebron/rondo), Rockets (harden, cp3), Mavs (doncic, smith jr), Pistons (r jackson, blake).. meanwhile, curry and durant are both under 5 min, so their team ranks high in assists and ball movement.. And btw, lebron is outside the top 100 in points-per-touch; MJ would've been one of the leaders

Btw, you have to filter this stat for the regular season, playoffs and Finals... lebron in particular will increase his time by 30-100% (literally double) in the playoffs and Finals.. His Finals' time of possession was 12.0 minutes in 2015, or 50% higher than the regular season leader John Wall's 8.3 minutes.. it's probably the most anyone's ever dominated the ball.. lebron's time was at 11 minutes in 2018.
.

[3ball]

Lebron's teams were always in the top 5 in offensive efficiency.

The Heatles peaked at #62 all-time in offensive efficiency and the recent Cavs at #26 and 46

that's a pathetic underachievement of lebron-ball compared to the best non-wilt offensive players ever - magic/curry/mj (the goat passer, shooter and scorer) - they had the top 3 offenses ever, while lebron's 2-PG approach with lebron-ball (turning the forward position into a 2nd pg) peaked at 26, 46 and 62 all-time..

A career of curry/mj/magic having better offenses than lebron-ball shows that their offenses were better, thereby increasing their odds of winning

Ultimately, Lebron-ball rarely applied enough pressure or wore down their Finals opponents more than they themselves were getting worn down by the opponent's superior methodology (ball movement).. lebron-ball struggled to have the upper hand and control the game flow 6 of 9 times on the championship level

[tamaraw08]

MJ and Kobe taking more shots than their teammates because they were shooting guards and they were satisfied as being a SG.
They did not label themselves and had the burden of "ability to play 1-5 and guard 1-5".
They were SG, their main job was to shoot and score.
They did not pass more or possess the ball more, not that they could not. They played under a system, the triangle offense.

Producing at a high rate in regular is one thing, able to produce a high rate in playoff is another.
You may win a couple of rings by playing Bron-ball or Harden-ball, but team ball wins most of the time.
Also, Harden doesn't have much success in the playoff at all.

But good coaches always adjust according to strengths. Shaq took more shots than Kobe when he was a peak form.
Who do you think took more shots between Steph and Klay.
How about Allen and Pierce? But ok I get it, usually you pair up a high scoring player with a role player or a player that can mesh with your superstar. The problem some of us are up in arms with a non traditional system even if their team's ORTG is very high.
Nash with his perpetual dribbling, Harden's perimeter iso's, Grant Hill as the point forward etc etc. I bet you if Jokic wins a couple of rings, some fans will groan oh, he's not supposed to stay in the perimeter....

[tamaraw08]

The Heatles peaked at #62 all-time in offensive efficiency and the recent Cavs at #26 and 46

that's a pathetic underachievement of lebron-ball compared to the best non-wilt offensive players ever - magic/curry/mj (the goat passer, shooter and scorer) - they had the top 3 offenses ever, while lebron's 2-PG approach with lebron-ball (turning the forward position into a 2nd pg) peaked at 26, 46 and 62 all-time..

A career of curry/mj/magic having better offenses than lebron-ball shows that their offenses were better, thereby increasing their odds of winning

Ultimately, Lebron-ball rarely applied enough pressure or wore down their Finals opponents more than they themselves were getting worn down by the opponent's superior methodology (ball movement).. lebron-ball struggled to have the upper hand and control the game flow 6 of 9 times on the championship level

So freaking what, explain to me again why Lebron's finals teams have a higher ORTG than MJ's teams? but but but, GSW with Klay, Green, Iggy, KD etc etc played bad defense, puhleezzzz, . Warriors were always good on defense, held Harden to a miserable FG% WCF. 2nd best 2 yrs ago, 6th best 3 years ago until they coasted though out the season last year.

[3ball]

Btw, this stat blows up lebron's Finals stats in recent years, since he held the ball for 11-12 minutes, or 30% more than harden is right now - so lebron's recent Finals were the most anyone's ever dominated the ball, by far..

This record ball-domination resulted in massive team assist deficits in his last 4 Finals losses

[tpols]

to be fair OP didnt even know the difference between usage and TOP.

3balls explanations on this topic are absolutely spot on.

[3ball]

So freaking what, explain to me again why Lebron's finals teams have a higher ORTG than MJ's teams?

Jordan's bulls had the #2, 6, 12, and 16 ortg's of all-time

Lebron-ball had the #26, 46, and 62 ortg's

So jordan's #2 offense would stand a much better chance against curry's #1 offense than lebron's #26 or 46 offenses did...

especially since defensively, MJ wouldn't let his man go off, let alone be the ONLY GUY on his team to do so

but but but, GSW with Klay, Green, Iggy, KD etc etc played bad defense, puhleezzzz, . Warriors were always good on defense. 2nd best 2 yrs ago, 6th best 3 years ago until they coasted though out the season last year.

The warriors drtg in the 17' Finals was 116 - no opponent of MJ played that weak defensively.. but those Warriors had the #1 all-time offense and could afford to simply outscore an opponent that wasn't a threat to keep up

Lebron-ball's inferior offense is susceptible to losing a no-defense, shootout.. indeed, lebron-ball's biggest disappointments were either:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] losing a shootout where both teams scored above their normal ORtg's (09' ecf, 17' Finals), or where lebron-ball underachieved it's regular season ortg (got locked up) - 10' ecsf, 11' Finals, 14' Finals)

And lebron's best showings were defensive lockdown battles, where both teams scored below their regular season ortg's - 06' ecsf, 07' ecf, 08' ecsf, 15' Finals, and 16' Finals..

So lebron-ball isn't an all-time, or dynasty offense, and performs best in defensive battles - it simply lacks the ball movement and spurtability of the best all-time offenses and consequently, has lost shootouts with great casts and 1 seeds
.

[Matppak]

So freaking what, explain to me again why Lebron's finals teams have a higher ORTG than MJ's teams? but but but, GSW with Klay, Green, Iggy, KD etc etc played bad defense, puhleezzzz, . Warriors were always good on defense, held Harden to a miserable FG% WCF. 2nd best 2 yrs ago, 6th best 3 years ago until they coasted though out the season last year.

So what your comparing a 2016 team to a 1996 team and your talking about 4ortg better? In 20 years which all the changes to increase scoring and decrease defense 4ortg is all you got? We are talking about using all stats in context including wins and the eye test Lebrons offense hasn't worked compared to other great players. He's dominated the ball so much he hasn't played defense for 5 years and all those team were mediocre or at the bottom of the league in drtg. While Jordan's shaq and Kobe Lakers Magics teams the warriors and so on have had top defenses and offenses while have more team passing not just 1 stat but all combined

[NBASTATMAN]

Btw, this stat blows up lebron's Finals stats in recent years, since he held the ball for 11-12 minutes, or 30% more than harden is right now - so lebron's recent Finals were the most anyone's ever dominated the ball, by far..

This record ball-domination resulted in massive team assist deficits in his last 4 Finals losses

I dont believe he was ever over 10 in playoffs ...

And the years of 2015 and 2018 he had no other guy to handle the ball.. Check the plus minus when he was off the court.

Dont tell me that they cant play off the ball the minute Lebron is no longer in because Boston did it on a whim in 2017 when Isiah Thomas was hurt..




https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1



check currys time of poss in 2016, very similar to Bron.. How about 2015 where Curry handled 7.3 minutes to Lebron's 9.5 minutes.. Yet Curry had Draymond and AIguodala to handle the ball .. Lebron had Jr Smith and Shump who were horrible ..

[3ball]

I dont believe he was ever over 10 in playoffs ...





https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche..._OF_POSS&dir=1

He did in the 15' and 18' Finals:

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche...ir=1&PORound=4

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche...ir=1&PORound=4


In other years he was at 8-10 minutes, which is equal or greater than the regular season leader

This pg-level time gives the team 2 players with a pg-level time of possession.. so the remaining 3 teammates have less time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups, which results in low TEAM assist rankings

it's harder to win with low ball movement and low assist teams, especially in the championship round, so 3/9 happens (1/9 without ray and kyrie shots)

[NBASTATMAN]

He did in the 15' and 18' Finals:

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche...ir=1&PORound=4

https://stats.nba.com/players/touche...ir=1&PORound=4


In other years he was at 8-10 minutes, which is equal or greater than the regular season leader

This ridiculous time with the ball gives the remaining 3 teammates less time and assists compared to their play in 1-point guard lineups, which results in low TEAM assist rankings

it's harder to win with low ball movement and low assist teams, especially in the championship round, so 3/9 happens (1/9 without ray and kyrie shots)

His results have been fine with his type of play.. The only time you can say his style of play didn't meet expectations were in 2011.


Let me know who should have handled the ball in 2015 NBA FINALS.. You do realize that Kyrie was injured and so was Love..

In 2018 Lebron had Hill who is a nice player but usually plays off the ball. Who should handle the ball when your SG cant dribble the ball up the damn court to save his life? Dude isnt even playing in the NBA anymore..



As for harder to win with low ball movement, I agree on that point. But you have to have a coach and the players with the skills to be able to play this type of game.. Only Kyrie was a player you can rely on to make good plays when Bron didnt have the ball.. Jr couldnt even get the ball over half court.


I will also agree that Lebron is better with the ball in his hands.. Only MJ could play GOAT offense off the ball and now CUrry..