[VIDEO/Discussion] Jerry West... is he a better all around player than Kobe?

[jlauber]

>Defense
>In the 70


About that Cavaliers..

These uneducated and unresearched responses really annoy me. West, with near perfect form, had seasons of .419 and .445 shooting.

I watched Jerry Lucas make some 20 straight shots from between the circles in a pre-game shoot-around, and yet he was "only" a career 50% shooter.

Bill Sharman was shooting .932 from the line in the 50's, forcryingoutloud, and struggled to shoot .450 from the field.

Some here may have read my post on Gus Johnson, but for those that did not...he was 6-6, 230 lbs. og brute force, and probably had a vertical the equal of Jordan's (I kid you not.) Not only that, but there is footage of him on YouTube, and he had a skilled mid-range shot. How come that guy wasn't putting up 30-20 seasons in the "unathletic 60's?"

Finally, maybe PunPun can explain this to the rest of us. A PRIME Kareem had a TOTAL of SEVEN 30+ point games against Nate Thurmond (who?) in their 43 H2H starts. His HIGH game was 34 points, and he had SEVEN games BELOW 20 in those 43 games. Not only that, but from the research that I have done, there is a STRONG possibility that Kareem shot less than 45% against Thurmond in those 43 H2H's (perhaps a LOT less.) In his three post-season series against Thurmond, Kareem shot .486, .428, and get this... .405.

Now, let's fast forward to the mid-80's. A 38-39 year old Kareem faced Hakeem in 10 H2H games in the 84-85, and 85-86 seasons. And in those 10 straight games, Kareem had SIX games of 30+, including THREE of 40+ (with a high game of 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) Overall, in those ten straight games, Kareem AVERAGED 32 ppg on, get this... .630 shooting. Oh, and BTW, in the same time frame that Kareem hung that 46 point game on Hakeem, he pounded Patrick Ewing with a 40 point game (on 15-22 shooting, and while holding Patrick to 9 points on 3-17 shooting.)

And BTW, Gilmore, a center from the 70's, and in his ten straight H2H's with Hakeem in those 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, averaged 24 ppg on, get this... 677 shooting (that is not a misprint.)

Moses, a 6-10 center, who rose to power in the late 70's, brutalized Kareem in the majority of their 40 career H2H games...and this against a Kareem from age 29 on.

I could go on and list player-after-player whose careers spanned the 60's and 70's, who shot better, to much better in the 70's. And and even greater difference from those whose careers spanned the decades of the 70's and 80's. The majority shot dramatically better in the 80's (Gilmore went thru the roof in the 80's.)

How? If defense was not being played in the 60's and 70's, explain all of the above to me.

[CavaliersFTW]

Scoring - Kobe Bryant
Superior outside shot, much better ball handling skills allow which allow him to penetrate better, and better footwork and post game. West probably has the better close-midrange shot and certainly had better shot selection, but no doubt Kobe is the better scorer.


Defense - Jerry West
This guy's defense is drastically underrated on this site. He definitely has a case for top 5 perimeter defender of all time. Their respective defensive peaks are probably close, but Kobe was only at that level for about 4 years; Jerry maintained that level for the majority of his career.


Passing/Playmaking - Jerry West
This one is easy. One of the first true combo guards that truly looked to get the whole team involved on a night in, night out basis. West's edge here is larger than the edge Kobe has over West in scoring IMO. Jerry West averaged a 35.1 Asst% in the 71-72 season


Rebounding - Kobe Bryant
This one was really easy for me as well. Kobe averaged as many rebounds in the 2000s as west did in the 60s-70s. Kobe's TRB% is much large as well and almost twice as large in some instances.



Intangibles - Kobe Bryant?
Only reason I'm hesitant with this one is because I haven't really read much about West's leadership/intangibles. Reason I went with Kobe is that I have read/heard enough about him to know that he really is a true leader.


Overall- Kobe

great post!

[Alan Ogg]

West would be a top 10 player in today's league year in, year out. I put him behind Kobe overall, but that's not a diss at all.

[SuperPippen]

Jordan
Kobe
West































D-Whistle

This.

[Kiddlovesnets]

West is the second greatest SG in NBA history, right below the GOAT. Kobe is known as the poor man's Jerry West.

/Thread

[SuperPippen]

West is the second greatest SG in NBA history, right below the GOAT. Kobe is known as the poor man's Jerry West.

/Thread

Bulls[COLOR="Black"]hi[/COLOR]t.

By no criteria can you rank West over Kobe. None.

[cuad]

I used to think Jerry West was an undersized white guy, but then...

[Linspired]

pat riley was listed at 6ft 4. big O was listed at 6ft 5. i have no idea how tall they are right now because they are grandpas, but it's safe to say west is definitely 6ft 4 ish even at 70+ years young.

[I LUV KOBE]

LOL at people choosing West over Kobe...

[jlauber]

West's career does not rank over Kobe's. Still, West was probably a better post-season scorer, and had his team's lost EIGHT times in the Finals, including several game seven's (and even an OT loss in a game seven.)

[SuperPippen]

pat riley was listed at 6ft 4. big O was listed at 6ft 5. i have no idea how tall they are right now because they are grandpas, but it's safe to say west is definitely 6ft 4 ish even at 70+ years young.

Definitely. And this is in his old age, when he might have lost an inch or two.

West would easily be listed at 6'4" today, possibly more. And that wingspan is impressive, as well.

[Deuce Bigalow]

West's career does not rank over Kobe's. Still, West was probably a better post-season scorer, and had his team's lost EIGHT times in the Finals, including several game seven's (and even an OT loss in a game seven.)

You cannot compare stats in an era of a 40 year difference When will you ever get it?
And on the last part, that is mainly due to Wilt's choking which cost West some rings. 4-13 FT shooting in Game 7 69 Finals, 1-11 FT shooting in game 7 70 Finals. Sub 40% FT shooting for the series both those Finals in 69 and 70. If only Wilt didn't choke, West would have 3 NBA Championships and 2 NBA Finals MVPs.

[jlauber]

You cannot compare stats in an era of a 40 year difference When will you ever get it?
And on the last part, that is mainly due to Wilt's choking which cost West some rings. 4-13 FT shooting in Game 7 69 Finals, 1-11 FT shooting in game 7 70 Finals. Sub 40% FT shooting for the series both those Finals in 69 and 70. If only Wilt didn't choke, West would have 3 NBA Championships and 2 NBA Finals MVPs.

I agree. Kareem shot much worse in the 70's than he did in the 80's and against much weaker competition in the 80's (players like Ewing, Hakeem, Laimbeer, Parish, Gilmore and Moses.) He had seasons of .539, .529, .518, and even .513 in the 70's. And an old Chamberlain reduced Kareem, a career .559 shooter (who shot .610 against Hakeem in 23 H2H's, and from ages 38-41) to a .464 shooter (and only .434 in their last ten H2H's.) And little known Nate Thurmond probably held Kareem to about 43% shooting in their 43 H2H's. So, yes, the era was much more difficult in the late 60's and early 70's.

Chamberlain shot .875 from the field in game seven of the '69 Finals (West shot 14-29 and MSSED FOUR FTs, and Baylor shot 8-22)...and was on the bench in the last five minutes of that game.

In game seven of the '70 Finals, Walt Frazier just owned West. Wilty shot 1-11 from the line (and 10-16 from the field), but even if he had gone 11-11 they would still have lost.

And how about West in the year in which he did finally win a ring. He shot .376 in that post-season, and get this... .325 in the Finals. Of course, it was WILT who carried that team to a title, and who won the FMVP.

BTW, an injured West shot .443 in the '73 post season, which included a Finals' clinching game loss of 5-17 shooting (while Wilt, in his LAST game, put up a 23 point, 9-16 shooting, 21 rebound game.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt's FT shooting

69 Finals: 24-66
70 Finals: 23-67
73 Finals: 14-38

Total FT shooting in 69, 70, 73 Finals: 61-171

35.7%

[PHILA]

Definitely. And this is in his old age, when he might have lost an inch or two.

West would easily be listed at 6'4" today, possibly more. And that wingspan is impressive, as well.

What is the most disappointing in seeing those photos is that there was once a time that the NBA offially listed Kobe at 6'7.


2001 NBA.com Player File