ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #1 Michael Jordan vs Magic Johnson.

[sh0wtime]

Now i know my vote doesnt count, but i will have a saying anyways.

First of all, putting together a list of the NBA’s Top Ten players of all-time is a little like becoming Britney Spear’s therapist. It’s an unenviable task that once completed, will ultimately leave many people unsatisfied and ashamed. Hence why there is no such list and never will exist, neither will "GOAT", its all opinions.

One of my biggest problems with lists like these is that everyone and their mother puts Jordan on top of the list and shouts down everyone who has a differing opinion. MJ might be the best player ever. But in no way, shape, or form is he the hands down, undisputable number one. Which is why I submit to you, my choice: Magic Johnson.

Consider the following…Magic won his five championships during the best decade the NBA has ever seen. In addition, Magic led his team to the Finals four additional times. That’s nine Finals appearances in a 12 year career! (not including his comeback year, of course.) That’s domination from wire to wire.

And Magic achieved this greatness against far better teams than MJ faced. If you think the NBA wasn’t watered down by the expansion of the ‘90s, you’re flat out crazy. If you think any of the teams the Bulls faced in the Finals were better than the Celtics of the ‘80s, you’re flat out crazy.

In addition, Magic Johnson is often credited with the following: Resurrecting Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s career, being the best passer in NBA history, redefining the point guard position, being the only non-center who could utterly dominate a game without scoring, and lest we forget, saving the NBA (along with Larry Bird).

Without Magic there is no MJ. There may have been a basketball player named Michael Jordan, but he wouldn’t have been the household name and global icon we know MJ as today. For that to happen, Magic had to come first. Thus he is my number one.

[OldSchoolBBall]

and exactly what I said was going to happen.... happened..

everyone who picked Magic over Kobe for being a better....Facilitator or whatever....is straight *crickets* in this thread...

If Magic is ranked ahead of Kobe for those reasons he should be ranked ahead of MJ too.....but all dem' is on the shhhhhhhhhhhhh...husshhh...

Not really, no, since Jordan is far more efficient than Kobe and at higher volume, a better playmaker/passer than Kobe, a better rebounder than Kobe, better defensively than Kobe, and has better intangibles than Kobe. Not to mention his VASTLY superior resume. So no, one doesn't have to logically choose Magic over Jordan if they chose Magic over Kobe. Kobe != Jordan.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Not really, no, since Jordan is far more efficient than Kobe and at higher volume, a better playmaker/passer than Kobe, a better rebounder than Kobe, better defensively than Kobe, and has better intangibles than Kobe. Not to mention his VASTLY superior resume. So no, one doesn't have to logically choose Magic over Jordan if they chose Magic over Kobe. Kobe != Jordan.

I don't think he's saying that based on the premise that Kobe = Jordan. I think he's saying that the people who chose Magic over Kobe say it's because of his passing/playmaking. Well Magic's passing/playmaking > Jordan's as well. But when it comes to Jordan they say Jordan > Magic because of his scoring/defense. Well Kobe > Magic in scoring/defense as well so why does the criteria change?

[NugzHeat3]

No it went the down the drain when the majority of you idiots picked Cousy over Wade. (dunno if you did just generalizing) At least you knuckleheads got it right for the top 2 at least but how could you get it wrong? So you deserve nothing for that.

Yeah I was just generalizing. I couldn't actually give a less of a damn about the rankings considering the majority are just mindless idiots.

I was just here for the discussion to get to know more about the players. Clearly, not a good idea in retrospect.

[PistonsFan#21]

[QUOTE=sh0wtime]Now i know my vote doesnt count, but i will have a saying anyways.

First of all, putting together a list of the NBA

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't think he's saying that based on the premise that Kobe = Jordan. I think he's saying that the people who chose Magic over Kobe say it's because of his passing/playmaking. Well Magic's passing/playmaking > Jordan's as well. But when it comes to Jordan they say Jordan > Magic because of his scoring/defense. Well Kobe > Magic in scoring/defense as well so why does the criteria change?

Because of the magnitude of the difference in Jordan's scoring/defensive impact as compared to Kobe's scoring/defensive impact. It's not that Kobe isn't a better scorer/defender than Magic - he is. But he's not AS MUCH of a better scorer/defender than Magic as Jordan is. It's the SIZE of Jordan's edge/impact in those areas (as well as his superior intangibles, rebounding, and passing/playmkaing) as compared to Kobe that allows him to trump Magic's advantages whereas Kobe does not. There is no contradiction there, because the SIZE of the difference between Magic/MJ as scorers/defenders is not the same as the SIZE of the difference between Magic/Kobe as scorers/defenders (and again, Jordan's intangibles, rebounding, and passing edge over Kobe also factors in).

[Gotterdammerung]

Magic Johnson had the more dominant career (9 finals in 12 years, 5 titles) while Jordan is the superior basketball player.

But the NBA is a team game, so they're a lot closer than most think. GOAT consists far more than the singular talent of the player. It's also about the intangibles, what the guy does for OTHER players.

Jordan probably could play the point guard position well, if he had a loaded team, but he couldn't replicate Magic's trigger-man style. Nobody could. Magic is far more rare in that regard.

Magic wasn't as a complete player as Jordan (not as athletic and not as consistent a scorer, and by miles not as vicious as a doberman on defense) but his impact on teams - maximized their abilities - was much greater. Magic could've scored more, but he knew that in order to win he had to sublimate his game. Jordan absolutely HAD to score on those shitty teams until Pippen and Grant came along. Then he could just fit in by scoring 8 points per quarter, and then liberally break the offensive sets in the clutch.

I'll just say this: you had to have a powerhouse team with a mentally strong coach to with with Jordan. Magic led much weaker teams to the finals than Jordan did (1989, 1991). Led the Lakers to 64 wins in 1990 - mostly on smoke and mirrors.

Jordan's better, but only by a hair.

[PistonsFan#21]

Magic Johnson himself said that Jordan is head and shoulders above the rest of the league

[OldSchoolBBall]

I'll just say this: you had to have a powerhouse team with a mentally strong coach to with with Jordan. Magic led much weaker teams to the finals than Jordan did (1989, 1991). Led the Lakers to 64 wins in 1990 - mostly on smoke and mirrors.

That's false. Jordan lost to the eventual champion Pistons in 1989 and 1990 with less support than what Magic had in '89 and '91. Had he played in the Western Conference like Magic (i.e., the worse conference) and Magic in the EC, Jordan's Bulls would have made the Finals in '89 and '90 with less help than Magic did. What you're saying is completely false.

On top of that, every single one of Magic's title teams had more talent than most/all of Jordan's title teams.

[RobertdeMeijer]

To me, it is Michael Jordan who defines greatness in basketball. My Dutch girlfriend knows his name, how he looks and knows of only one basketball team: the Chicago Bulls. Not until another player is so well known, will I change my definition of what constitutes basketball greatness. Sorry Bill Russell.

[Da_Realist]

Damn I tried not to say anything in this and the other threads. I just wanted read the intelligent posts and ignore the other 85%. But I must say this...

Every player needs help. Every single one, no matter how great, has a hole or two in his game. Jordan needed Phil Jackson because he's so ultra competitive that he needed someone that would be headstrong enough to push back but not so headstrong that he extinguished that fire. Because that's what made Jordan SPECIAL. Jordan without PJ and Pippen is like drinking Jack Daniels with no chaser. Don't overdo it! With PJ and Pippen there, it's like a smooth $200 bottle of cognac.

Magic Johnson needed help, too. He played no defense and needed players there that could help in that regard. Magic Johnson didn't make Michael Cooper play all world defense. He also played on big teams that clogged the middle. It also helped that he usually had big guys (Kareem especially but also guys like Worthy, Perkins and Thompson) that could put the ball in the hoop. Magic might have given them the ball in the best possible position to score but those guys still had to score. Magic didn't help Worthy with those spin moves. Magic didn't help Kareem with his sky hooks. Put Magic on a team where Cliff Levingston and Tree Rollins were his big guys and he would have a problem getting to the Finals.

The 91 Lakers relied on size and defense to win games. Sometime during the season, they were ranked in the top 3 in DEFENSE. That wasn't all Magic Johnson.

Every player needs help. The player helps the team but the team also helps the player. Put Jordan on a team with some people to round out his rough edges and he'll take you to a title. Put Magic on a team with some size and players dedicated to defense and he'll get you a title.

This wasn't to any poster in particular but just something I wanted to say for a while and it seemed relevant to this discussion.

[AlphaWolf24]

Because of the magnitude of the difference in Jordan's scoring/defensive impact as compared to Kobe's scoring/defensive impact. It's not that Kobe isn't a better scorer/defender than Magic - he is. But he's not AS MUCH of a better scorer/defender than Magic as Jordan is. It's the SIZE of Jordan's edge/impact in those areas (as well as his superior intangibles, rebounding, and passing/playmkaing) as compared to Kobe that allows him to trump Magic's advantages whereas Kobe does not. There is no contradiction there, because the SIZE of the difference between Magic/MJ as scorers/defenders is not the same as the SIZE of the difference between Magic/Kobe as scorers/defenders (and again, Jordan's intangibles, rebounding, and passing edge over Kobe also factors in).

complete Bullsh!t....

Kobe and Jordan are similar players in similar roles with similar results...

the difference's in Both is marginal at best....and many of the slight difference's can be atributed to them slightly overlapping but for the most part playing 2 diffrent era's..

99.9% of the basketball community compares both and has watched over 30seasons of basketball betweeen the both of them.....and all have came to the same conclusion....both are very similar and the top 2 greatest SG's ever.....hans down.



now you sit here and say Jordan was just so much better then Kobe that it erases all the better attributes that Magic had over Kobe???. ..another sign of your basketball illiteracy..



apply yourself son......because you aint trying very hard.









next

[AlphaWolf24]

Damn I tried not to say anything in this and the other threads. I just wanted read the intelligent posts and ignore the other 85%. But I must say this...

Every player needs help. Every single one, no matter how great, has a hole or two in his game. Jordan needed Phil Jackson because he's so ultra competitive that he needed someone that would be headstrong enough to push back but not so headstrong that he extinguished that fire. Because that's what made Jordan SPECIAL. Jordan without PJ and Pippen is like drinking Jack Daniels with no chaser. Don't overdo it! With PJ and Pippen there, it's like a smooth $200 bottle of cognac.

Magic Johnson needed help, too. He played no defense and needed players there that could help in that regard. Magic Johnson didn't make Michael Cooper play all world defense. He also played on big teams that clogged the middle. It also helped that he usually had big guys (Kareem especially but also guys like Worthy, Perkins and Thompson) that could put the ball in the hoop. Magic might have given them the ball in the best possible position to score but those guys still had to score. Magic didn't help Worthy with those spin moves. Magic didn't help Kareem with his sky hooks. Put Magic on a team where Cliff Levingston and Tree Rollins were his big guys and he would have a problem getting to the Finals.

The 91 Lakers relied on size and defense to win games. Sometime during the season, they were ranked in the top 3 in DEFENSE. That wasn't all Magic Johnson.

Every player needs help. The player helps the team but the team also helps the player. Put Jordan on a team with some people to round out his rough edges and he'll take you to a title. Put Magic on a team with some size and players dedicated to defense and he'll get you a title.

This wasn't to any poster in particular but just something I wanted to say for a while and it seemed relevant to this discussion.

Wow every player needs help??.....hmmm...after reading about Kobe vs Magic I would of thought Kobe was supposed to win every game by himself....since he gets slighted for Winning with Shaq.....even though he was putting up 29PPG 7REB 6AST Championship runs playing BOTH sides of the floor...

who knew???.....

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=sh0wtime]Now i know my vote doesnt count, but i will have a saying anyways.

First of all, putting together a list of the NBA

[OldSchoolBBall]

complete Bullsh!t....

Kobe and Jordan are similar players in similar roles with similar results...

the difference's in Both is marginal at best...

lulz. Keep telling yourself that, kid. From age 21-30 Jordan was scoring 4.5 more ppg on +5% FG and +3.5% TS, which is a SIGNIFICANT difference. Jordan's defensive impact was also WELL beyond Kobe's, and he has edges as a passer and rebounder; he was also better in terms of leadership and intangibles. There is no comparison between Kobe and Jordan. None. Zero.