Who's a better player Wade or CP3?

[DMAVS41]

AJ...you can't have it both ways.

You can't post how Kobe has 12 all defensive teams and how that should matter a ton...etc. And then turn around and say Wade was better defensively...when he has 3 all defensive selections.

Well, you can...but that would make my point.

You see? You are just making my point for me here. That it matters more how the players actually play than what accolades they get. I agree with you that Wade was better defensively a lot of those years, but on your own method you really don't get to say that.

Do you know what a straw man is? I understand your position perfectly and have continued to represent it fairly.

You are confused to mine or knowingly misrepresenting it.



I understand your position just fine. You rank mostly on accolades and team accomplishments.

Again, you have conceded this when you said you'd rank Paul 20 spots higher for making the finals a few times in the East on a loaded team.



My position is simple. I care more about how good players actually were/are than you do...and while I factor in in accolades and accomplishments...I want to create as even of a playing field as possible rather than privilege one player over another just because his team was better.

As a Wade fan...this seems counterproductive to do it your way. Do you really think Kobe was better than Wade in 09 and 10...LOL

[DMAVS41]

So , If Wade hadn't Shaq and Lebron ; he could out of 50 on your all time list?

Bingo.

Someone else gets it.

[aj1987]

AJ...you can't have it both ways.

You can't post how Kobe has 12 all defensive teams and how that should matter a ton...etc. And then turn around and say Wade was better defensively...when he has 3 all defensive selections.

Well, you can...but that would make my point.

You see? You are just making my point for me here. That it matters more how the players actually play than what accolades they get. I agree with you that Wade was better defensively a lot of those years, but on your own method you really don't get to say that.

Read the entire posts. At this point, I'm just repeating myself, because you are probably just skimming through the posts.

He did get screwed. Never denied that. Doesn't change the FACT that Kobe was a brilliant defender as well. He was an elite defender for over 8 years MINIMUM. Wade was an elite defender in '05, '06, '09-'13 (only the RS in '13). That's 7 years MAX for Wade. Peaks? Pretty close. As you said, I'm a Wade fan and I'll pick Wade's peak (defensively) over Kobe's.

Kobe has more years being a better defensive player than Wade. That's just a FACT/

You are confused to mine or knowingly misrepresenting it.

What? I'm using FACTS to show that CP3 is not a top 50 level player and I've been trying to explain how I do my rankings. That's the only thing I've been doing. If you think I actually care about anyone else's rankings, then you're mistaken. Well, maybe I do, but not enough to post this much about it.

I understand your position just fine. You rank mostly on accolades and team accomplishments.

Once again, I'll repost.

I always keep saying this, but all-time rankings are subjective. I keep changing mine depending upon how much I vale stuff at different times. The 5 main criteria are: personal accolades, team accomplishments, stats, longevity, and intangibles. Not in that particular order.

Try to read it slowly.

Again, you have conceded this when you said you'd rank Paul 20 spots higher for making the finals a few times in the East on a loaded team.

My position is simple. I care more about how good players actually were/are than you do...and while I factor in in accolades and accomplishments...I want to create as even of a playing field as possible rather than privilege one player over another just because his team was better.

That would basically mean almost all elite players are basically the same. Even on a "level" playing field, CP3 fails. Dude NEVER MADE IT PAST THE 2ND ROUND WITH LOADED TEAMS. **** getting to the Finals.

So , If Wade hadn't Shaq and Lebron ; he could out of 50 on your all time list?

Bingo.

Someone else gets it.

Once again, hypotheticals. Can we deal with reality here or are we gonna stay in Lala land?

BTW, if the '05 Heat didn't get Shaq, they would've has ~$25M in salary cap to sign a player or players. Could've gotten someone younger and better than a declining Shaq. Maybe then Wade wouldn't have had garbage ass teams from '08-'10, which mean that he would've gotten a chance to make more noise in the PO's, while moving into the top 15.

That's why ranking players based on hypothetical scenarios is retarded.

[PsychoBe]

why is it fair to rank cp3 to a different standard than other superstars? i don't get it.

at least bran had a few mvp's despite not winning in the finals and he was still outside of the top 10 (still is but most ppl have him there for some reason).

if everyone was looked at purely at accolades and not team accomplishments to help pacify a player who never got out of the second round, then t-mac has a case over cp3.

[DMAVS41]

AJ

You can keep screaming how you rank, but that screaming doesn't clean up the mess you've created.

What if Wade played on terrible teams his entire career...but was exactly as good at basketball as he has been? You'd rank him much lower. This is a ****ing flaw...I don't understand why you can't see it.

Again, I understand it just fine. We get your position...

My argument is that you put too much emphasis on personal accolades and team accomplishments.

I never said we should ignore it altogether. I've said this repeatedly.

You miss the point about Kobe vs Wade. Kobe has 12 selections. Wade has 3. Anyone that knows reality...knows this is idiotic. On your ranking, because you privilege those selections so much...you simply can't say what you are saying.

Or, you'd have to go edit the post earlier in which you made a huge deal about Kobe's all defense selections.

So which is it? Does the actual play matter more...or do the selections matter more?

Also, Paul should take criticism for not getting out of the 2nd round these last 2 years....precisely because his circumstances were not to blame. But back when he was in New Orleans...nah...just not gonna say much about a guy that averages 24/4/11 56% TS and loses to a better Spurs team. We can say he didn't do something special...and that should separate him from guys that have proven they can do something special, but that shouldn't separate him from the likes of a guy like Kidd or something.

You see? Context...you can try to put each part of the criteria through a fair lens of context. Rather than just blanket statements about "2nd round"...no all defense, not enough all nba, no MVP...etc.


To your last point...just no. It wouldn't mean that at all. It just means trying to figure out what to do with KG spending the first half plus of his career playing with shit while someone like Kobe was playing with Shaq/Phil...how do we somehow get beyond those circumstances.

Lastly, what you claim is just false. Go check the RealGM top 100 in 08, 11, and 14....and tell me that 99.9% of the basketball community ranks like you.

Not everyone puts so much emphasis on personal accolades and team accomplishments.

Hypothetical situations and thought experiments are vital to this. My god...how can you be fore a system that privileges a player so much just based off where he was drafted. You really think Duncan and KG got drafted into similar circumstances? Now, I rank Duncan higher specifically for basketball reasons, but how the **** are you going to sit there and tell me we should rank KG and Duncan on the same standard from 98 through 07...in terms of team accomplishments. If you don't create a thought experiment and apply context....you are just ignorant to reality.

Like...if you were comparing Curry and Anthony Davis last year. You really think a sound argument would be;

"Curry won the title and AD couldn't even win a game in the first round"

This is what I keep trying to tell you. Not everyone...far less than you think at the very least...see it like that. They'd want to have a conversation about the two players and how they actually play...you know...the game of basketball...and how that play makes one more impactful or not.

And this is why I keep saying you are doing "career/resume rankings" and now player rankings in terms of how good they are/were.

[aj1987]

AJ

You can keep screaming how you rank, but that screaming doesn't clean up the mess you've created.

What if Wade played on terrible teams his entire career...but was exactly as good at basketball as he has been? You'd rank him much lower. This is a ****ing flaw...I don't understand why you can't see it.

IT DOESN'T ****ING MATTER. How do you not get that through your head? I really do not give a flying **** about hypotheticals. It's all about what ACTUALLY HAPPENED. It's also not a give that CP3 is making the ECF, considering the FACT that he lost in the 2nd round multiple times with better teams.

Nique, AD, etc. would've won as well, if they had stacked teams. You really don't see people ranking them high, do you?

Kobe has almost everything that you value over Hakeem and yet, you still rank Hakeem over Kobe. Longevity? Kobe. Stats? Kobe. Offense? Kobe. Heck, Kobe is considered to be a shitty playmaker, but he's still better than Hakeem. The only things he has on Kobe are defense and rebounding. Don't even try to bring up efficiency, because they were pretty much equal.

Lastly, what you claim is just false. Go check the RealGM top 100 in 08, 11, and 14....and tell me that 99.9% of the basketball community ranks like you.

Why the **** would I go there? That website is literal trash and filled up with PC ******s.

And yes. Almost 99.99% of actual basketball fans would have the same top 50 (never did a top 100) as I do.

Like...if you were comparing Curry and Anthony Davis last year. You really think a sound argument would be;

"Curry won the title and AD couldn't even win a game in the first round"

AD wasn't really impressive in the PO's. He put up stats, but you could see that he really wasn't that good. Curry was incredible though. AD got out rebounded by a midget C.

Again, for the billionth time, since you seem to attention deficit:

I always keep saying this, but all-time rankings are subjective. I keep changing mine depending upon how much I vale stuff at different times. The 5 main criteria are: personal accolades, team accomplishments, stats, longevity, and intangibles. Not in that particular order.

He did get screwed. Never denied that. Doesn't change the FACT that Kobe was a brilliant defender as well. He was an elite defender for over 8 years MINIMUM. Wade was an elite defender in '05, '06, '09-'13 (only the RS in '13). That's 7 years MAX for Wade. Peaks? Pretty close. As you said, I'm a Wade fan and I'll pick Wade's peak (defensively) over Kobe's.

How do you still not understand? Give all elite players comparable teams and they'll win roughly the same number of the rings. The Kobe's, LeBron's, Shaq's, etc.. CP3, even with super stacked teams has not made it to the WCF. Never made it past the 2nd round with players like BG, DJ, Craw, etc..

CP3 had teams which were good enough to make the WCF a couple of times. Not even the Finals. Just the WCF. Maybe he's just not that good a player?

Can you actually tell me how a player, who had some REALLY good teams, never made it past the 2nd round, yet is in the top 50?

If you have any new points to talk about, we can but otherwise we're pretty much done. I've basically reposting the past couple of times. Try to read entire posts before you reply though.

[houston]

Paul slightly better

[robby712]

Wade is so disrespected

[Wade's Rings]

Wade is so disrespected

How was he disrespected in this thread?

[DMAVS41]

AJ

I've read your entire posts and you still aren't grasping it. I know exactly what your criteria is and I'm telling you....that you value personal accolades and team accomplishments too much if your goal is to try to figure out how good a player actually was....not how good of a career they had. If you can't see the difference between the two...that is on you.

I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

Why do I rank Hakeem over Kobe? Because I thought Hakeem was better. Also their longevity is very similar. I actually might give the edge to Hakeem. Kobe was not a relevant player his first 2 years, and he's been a terrible player for 3 years now. It's very close on longevity at this point...and Hakeem didn't have a run in his career where he destroyed his team.

Why is CP3 top 50? Simple...he's as good or better at playing basketball than some of the guys you put in your top 50. I don't know why you can't grasp this. You making the comment "tell me how a player is top 50 that hasn't been out of the 2nd round" means very little to me. Especially when the comparison is players at the end of the 50 that simply weren't better players than Paul. So you thought KG just sucked all the way through his 03 season? Because, and you might not realize this because you clearly didn't watch some of these guys play...KG didn't make it out of the first round his first 7 years in the playoffs. In fact, he made it out of the first round one time in his 12 years in Minny....

If the comparison is Paul and a guy like Wade...then Paul not making it out of the 2nd round hurts him a lot more because he loses to Wade on ability and on accolades, team accomplishments. And Paul doesn't have remotely the kind of longevity to make up that gap.

But you tell me Paul is worse than Gary Payton....I just don't care much about the 2nd round stuff because Paul is simply a better basketball player imo.

So if it's your opinion that a guy like Payton is better....great, that is fine. It's your reasoning that is flawed...because it sounds like your reasons are going to be about Paul not making it out of the 2nd round...and that's a terrible reason when it comes to Paul vs Payton. Again, not saying we don't factor in success at all...I'm saying you are valuing it too much.

Read this article please;

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...s-a-point-god/

The come back and tell me..."maybe he just isn't that good"

[robby712]

How was he disrespected in this thread?

The simple fact that this thread exists is an example of how people underrate Wade. Yes, I am biased because he is my fav player ever. But come on, it isn't even that close. Yes, CP3 had great seasons, but he isn't and wasn't the court presence that Wade was. His injuries made people underestimate just how great he was. In his prime, Wade had shit teams. 09' and 10' Wade is one of the most complete and explosive players that played in this league.
If we consider the regular season, then the gap between them isn't that big. Although CP3 doesn't take those Heat teams to the playoffs. But I don't think anyone realizes how different is in the playoffs. Being able to lift your team, to take over when you have to, all that pressure , also the fact that sometimes you play against the same team for 7 games in row gets disregarded. It's not easy to produce for 7 games against the same team, the same defenders. After a while they learn your game, you have to be a step ahead all the time. Wade has 3 rings, came very close to another 2, has one of the best Finals ever, and despite people thinking that he was carried by Lebron in 2012 and 2013, he had all time great games against Indiana and San Antonio. Meanwhile, Cp3 has had great teams, and never made the WCF. And he choked a number of times. It's not even close. It should be CP3 vs Melo. Wade is in another league.

[DaOldLion]

The simple fact that this thread exists is an example of how people underrate Wade. Yes, I am biased because he is my fav player ever. But come on, it isn't even that close. Yes, CP3 had great seasons, but he isn't and wasn't the court presence that Wade was. His injuries made people underestimate just how great he was. In his prime, Wade had shit teams. 09' and 10' Wade is one of the most complete and explosive players that played in this league.
If we consider the regular season, then the gap between them isn't that big. Although CP3 doesn't take those Heat teams to the playoffs. But I don't think anyone realizes how different is in the playoffs. Being able to lift your team, to take over when you have to, all that pressure , also the fact that sometimes you play against the same team for 7 games in row gets disregarded. It's not easy to produce for 7 games against the same team, the same defenders. After a while they learn your game, you have to be a step ahead all the time. Wade has 3 rings, came very close to another 2, has one of the best Finals ever, and despite people thinking that he was carried by Lebron in 2012 and 2013, he had all time great games against Indiana and San Antonio. Meanwhile, Cp3 has had great teams, and never made the WCF. And he choked a number of times. It's not even close. It should be CP3 vs Melo. Wade is in another league.

you shouldn't take ISH so seriously, if Wade was more popular and talked about more then he would have anti Wade trolls trolling all of his threads. If this was Cp3 vs Kobe there would be 10+ pages of trolls arguing for Cp3 over Kobe, it's happened before.

Be happy that your favorite player falls into that "underrated realm" and doesn't have a dedicated fan base of trolls constantly undermining his every accomplishment.

[Kobe_6/8]

All-time: Wade
Currently: CP3

3 rings, 1 FMVP, GOAT level 08-09 season

[ArbitraryWater]

Aj still fuming and losing..

[aj1987]

But you tell me Paul is worse than Gary Payton....I just don't care much about the 2nd round stuff because Paul is simply a better basketball player imo.

You do know that GP was a DPOY level defender while still managing to up 21/5/8 over 11 seasons, right? You also do know that he made the Finals, right? Dude scored 22/7/9 in their only two wins in the Finals, while managing to "shut down" (slow down actually) MJ. Something which no one outside GP was able to accomplish in the Finals.

How do you still not understand? Give all elite players comparable teams and they'll win roughly the same number of the rings. The Kobe's, LeBron's, Shaq's, etc.. CP3, even with super stacked teams has not made it to the WCF. Never made it past the 2nd round with players like BG, DJ, Craw, etc..

CP3 had teams which were good enough to make the WCF a couple of times. Not even the Finals. Just the WCF. Maybe he's just not that good a player?

Can you actually tell me how a player, who had some REALLY good teams, never made it past the 2nd round, yet is in the top 50?

Aj still fuming and losing..

Why you still melting down, retard?