Elgin Baylor and Rick Barry > Scottie Pippen and John Havlicek

[L.Kizzle]

From 59-65 Elgin was being described as perhaps the best all around player in the game (I'm sure there was a debate to be had on this at the time, but he was a name in the hat), I base this on all the audio I have of narrators and coaches from that time period saying exactly that. I put a lot of that dialogue in the baylor mix I just made. By the late 60's to early 70's Baylor's injuries more or less put him out of the discussions and perhaps West who had gotten better, and certainly Robertson and Barry (who were both in that discussion from the moment they entered the NBA) were then the stronger candidates.

Baylor was a better scorer rebounder and defender. Oscar was the better passer and shooter. they were both 6'5.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'd put Melo in the 3rd tier...and Durant probably ends up in the 2nd...

I agree on Durant but right now I see Carmelo on a trajectory to be in the 4th tier. He is the Dominique of this era: a great scorer who does not impact the game in other ways and achieves no team success.

[pudman13]

Scottie Pippen and John Havlicek have not nor have they ever been in the same tier as players as Elgin Baylor or Rick Barry.

I think you're right, but it is worth noting that unlike Pippen, Havlicek was arguably the best player on two title teams. (1969 and 1974.)

[1987_Lakers]

I tend to agree with the OP. If we are talking about strictly peak play, then Barry & Baylor are above Havlicek & Pippen.

Barry might have been an A-hole, but he could ball. I don't think anyone considered Havlicek to be a better player than Barry when both were at their peak.

[jayfan]

Speaking of that, plenty of people called Pippen the best all-around player in 1994 and 1995

Who, exactly? Pretty sure Hakeem had that title wrapped up.








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[Roundball_Rock]

Who, exactly? Pretty sure Hakeem had that title wrapped up.

NBA coaches voted Pippen that in one of those years. There also were press references to him being the best "all-around" player. That is not the same thing as being the best player--but it is similar to Havlicek or Baylor being called that despite neither ever being the best player in the league.

[Kvnzhangyay]

It is interesting that only in basketball a lot of older players are better than "modern" players

Never watched Baylor/Barry so I have no comment on that though

[CavaliersFTW]

It is interesting that only in basketball a lot of older players are better than "modern" players

Never watched Baylor/Barry so I have no comment on that though

Lebron is in the same class of player as Baylor and Barry... and above that of Pippen, or Havlicek. You see, there is no one way street of opinions towards older players in comparison to modern players like you are imagining. Credit is given when credit is due. I can already tell from seeing just two recent posts of yours that you are probably a whiny little bitch when it comes to discussing "older players" because you imply that you feel that the people who know the history of the game aren't being fair to players that are currently playing, when that isn't the case at all. Some people like to be just as acutely aware of what has already been accomplished in the game, as what is currently being accomplished by today's incredible talent. If there is no talent today that compares to a talent of the past, it will be pointed out. Such as centers, today's centers aren't accomplishing what many past centers accomplished. Likewise, this can go both ways. There haven't been many point guard MVP's, so guys like Derrick Rose (barring injury) are doing great things too. There's no reason to be jealous of past players getting positive attention.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Lebron is in the same class of player as Baylor and Barry... and above that of Pippen, or Havlicek. You see, there is no one way street of opinions towards older players in comparison to modern players like you are imagining. Credit is given when credit is due. I can already tell from seeing just two recent posts of yours that you are probably a whiny little bitch when it comes to discussing "older players" because you imply that you feel that the people who know the history of the game aren't being fair to players that are currently playing, when that isn't the case at all. Some people like to be just as acutely aware of what has already been accomplished in the game, as what is currently being accomplished by today's incredible talent. If there is no talent today that compares to a talent of the past, it will be pointed out. Such as centers, today's centers aren't accomplishing what many past centers accomplished. Likewise, this can go both ways. There haven't been many point guard MVP's, so guys like Derrick Rose (barring injury) are doing great things too. There's no reason to be jealous of past players getting positive attention.

Dang calm down brah no need to be so sensitive to different opinions

Can't believe you wrote a paragraph just to defend your view from something I wrote in about 10 seconds

[cltcfn2924]

I wouldn't necessarily put Pipp or Hondo ahead of those guys but I would submit that they were in the same tier as the bottom of your tier. Nique and the rest aren't really in the discussion. They aren't even close.

I'm pretty much in lock step with Roundball.

Elgin continues to be one of the more underrated players ever. I think some people were around for the end of his career and lower him based on that. But at his peak he was tremendous.

People ALWAYS neglect defensive prowess on the all-time rankings (outside of Russell). I think thats why I tend to have Scotty higher than many.

Hondo may have been the best perimeter defensive player ever.

[steve]

I agree with CFTW's approximation here. LeBron, Bird, Erving, Barry, and Baylor are the class of the Small Forwards with Pippen and Hondo being slightly behind them. Since we're talking about the best of the best here, it tends to get a little nitpicky and as great as Pippen and Havlicek were, I'd be hard pressed to really put them exactly on equal footing with those five. The argument could be made. I'd definitely include Billy Cunningham with them (kind of surprised he hasn't really been brought up, but that might have something to do with my next point).

There was some discussion in another thread and it sort of gets touched on here about what actually constitutes as a small forward. LeBron, Bird, and Baylor all spent some time at the 4 at various points in their career (and Pippen even spent a good amount of time there in the Bulls second threepeat, depending on how exactly you'd classify Kukoc). But that's different than being a power forward or small forward. Despite them having different designations on the court during their career there's very little debate that everyone recognizes them as small forwards and I think a lot of that has to do with how their offensive games are presented (which is really where most of the positional labels come for most players, the one exception probably being center).

All of these players' offensive games extend from the wing in. They might have post games but more often then not when they attack the defense, it's from a face up position starting on the wing. This is different than say Nowitzki who clearly faces up his defender when attacking them but then is offense still starts from the interior and then moves out even if his post game (and it is a post game) has been one of the most unique in history. Positions when we're looking at them from a historical context has much more to do with how a player attacks or approaches the game rather what their positional designation happens to be when the game starts.

[bizil]

Of the guys listed, peak wise to me it's like this:

Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Pippen

However, Barry and Hondo in my opinion were both point forward kind of players to an extent AND were alpha dog level scorers. And in terms of being a complete player on BOTH SIDES of the rock, Hondo ONLY take a backseat to Lebron at the SF. Pippen is close, but he's not an alpha dog, and Hondo was. GOAT wise, I would also rank Hondo number one on this list.

Baylor was the first freak athlete alpha dog scoring machine. From there it went to Hawkins, then Doc, then Nique, then Lebron. Those are the five definitive freak athlete scoring machines at the SF of all time. All defined it for their given eras basically. I think Bron is the best because he was a point forward and great defender on top of it. That all time 60's team starting five with Wilt, Russell, Baylor, West, and Big O fits together more perfectly than any all decade team. I'm not saying they are the best, but in terms of fit and all around completeness, that team is a BEAST!

[L.Kizzle]

Of the guys listed, peak wise to me it's like this:

Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Pippen

However, Barry and Hondo in my opinion were both point forward kind of players to an extent AND were alpha dog level scorers. And in terms of being a complete player on BOTH SIDES of the rock, Hondo ONLY take a backseat to Lebron at the SF. Pippen is close, but he's not an alpha dog, and Hondo was. GOAT wise, I would also rank Hondo number one on this list.

Baylor was the first freak athlete alpha dog scoring machine. From there it went to Hawkins, then Doc, then Nique, then Lebron. Those are the five definitive freak athlete scoring machines at the SF of all time. All defined it for their given eras basically. I think Bron is the best because he was a point forward and great defender on top of it.

Don't forget Gus Johnson and George McGinnis and Larry Johnson. All had a build similar to Gus. And before Elgin even was Maurice Stokes.

[bizil]

Don't forget Gus Johnson and George McGinnis and Larry Johnson. All had a build similar to Gus. And before Elgin even was Maurice Stokes.

Ya those guys were great. But I was just stating the five guys who defined that style the most. Guys who were among the best scorers in the world and virtually unstoppable. Stokes and Johnson were't alpha dog level players. They were freak athletes though no question about it. Those guys aren't as legendary as Elgin, Hawkins, Doc, Nique, or Bron. Also Larry Johnson's best days were at PF in my opinion. I think of the guys u named that McGinnis was the closest to the guys I named in terms o f level of dominance.

[Marchesk]

No, but there was talk about Pippen being the second best player in the league (i.e. Bob Ryan, Sports Illustrated, Chuck Daly--and MJ had Pippen #1 in 95', a view he confirmed privately years later so it was not simply pumping up a colleague)..

Pippen was not better than Hakeem, Barkley, Malone or Drexler.

It really helps to have MJ on your team. Pippen was great and all, but damn, it makes a difference to have what most people consider the GOAT as your number one option.

Imagine if any of those guys above had MJ as their teammate most of their careers. Would make a big difference.