All Time Draft Round 1 Western Conference 6vs11 and 3vs14

[barkleynash]

VOTING IS OPEN TO EVERYONE. However, the requirement is that you have >100 post counts, and your account must be registered before Sept 14. Troll votes would not be taken into account (subjected to veto by the 3 commissioners).
Voting will end on Halloween at 11:59pm

Western Conference


#6 Team Cold Soul

PG: John Stockton 89-90
SG: Dennis Johnson
SF: Elgin Baylor 61-62
PF: Rasheed Wallace 01-02
C: Wilt Chamberlain 66-67

Bench: David Thompson
Raja Bell
Peja Stojakovic 03-04
Shawn Kemp 95-96
Robert Parish

Coach: Pat Riley



VS


#11 Team Milbuck
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...postcount=1049 (team synopsis)

PG/SG: Anfernee Hardaway 95-96
SG: Kobe Bryant 02-03
SF: Chris Mullin 91-92
PF: Dirk Nowitzki 10-11
C: Patrick Ewing 89-90

Bench: Derrick Rose 10-11
Brandon Roy 08-09
Jinmy Butler 13-14
LaMarcus Aldridge 13-14
Charles Oakley 93-94

Coach: John Wooden



AND



#14 Team Kobe's Finger
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...postcount=1021 (team synopsis)

PG: Chris Paul 08-09
SG: Vince Carter 00-01
SF: Paul George 13-14
PF/C: Kevin Garnett 03-04
C: Ben Wallace

Bench: Nate McMillan 93-94
Manu Ginobili 07-08
Andre Iguodala 13-14
Boris Diaw 13-14
Jermaine Oneal 02-03

Coach: Doc Rivers


VS


#3 Team Barkleynash
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...&postcount=975 (team synopsis)

PG/PF: Magic Johnson 89-90
SG/SF: Kawhi Leonard 13-14
SF: Julius "The Dr." Erving 75-76
PF: Bob Pettit 60-61
C: Arvydas Sabonis 85-86

Bench: Lenny Wilkens 74-75
Klay Thompson 11-12
Oscar Schmidt 87-88
Antonio McDyess 97-98
Vlade Divac 89-90

Coach: Dr. Jack Ramsay




Good Luck to Everyone! You may now begin your debate.

Western Conference 2vs15 and 7vs10: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...3#post10665193
Eastern Conference 1vs16 and 8vs9: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...6#post10664616
Eastern Conference 5vs12 and 4vs13: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...7#post10664917

Link back to main playoff page: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1#post10664321

[kshutts1]

Milbuck doesn't have the D required to exploit Cold's lack of ball-handling.
Pretty similar team makeups, but I think Cold takes this. Bad matchup for Milbuck, whose team is really good.. just may have hit its kryptonite....
Wilt can and will dominate Ewing.
Sheed can guard Dirk pretty well, though he doesn't have the lateral quickness to really stay with him on the perimeter. That said, I think Sheed can guard him adequately enough that there is no need to double.
Penny needs to abuse Stockton for Milbuck to stand any chance. And he can.
Kobe is Milbuck's best player, but he's also matched up with a great defender. Not that Kobe will be stopped, but it's just bad luck, I guess.

As usual, barring the gameplans, Cold should take this. Pretty close, as the teams are even, but Penny and Kobe have to do everything for Milbuck.
Wow, I have not even mentioned Baylor! Game over. Cold wins.

[kshutts1]

Barkley wants to run, but Kobe's rebounding won't let him. Right off the bat, Barkley's biggest strength is somewhat negated.
Not to gameplan for someone else, but Paul will guard Leonard. He's not good enough to abuse Paul in the post, and Paul's not big enough to guard Magic in the post. Vince is. Not the best defender, but size helps.

In a half court game, I see Barkley's lack of outside shooting too big an obstacle to overcome. Kobe's team barely takes this one. Again.. game plans can change my opinion.

[raiderfan19]

Milbuck doesn't have the D required to exploit Cold's lack of ball-handling.
Pretty similar team makeups, but I think Cold takes this. Bad matchup for Milbuck, whose team is really good.. just may have hit its kryptonite....
Wilt can and will dominate Ewing.
Sheed can guard Dirk pretty well, though he doesn't have the lateral quickness to really stay with him on the perimeter. That said, I think Sheed can guard him adequately enough that there is no need to double.
Penny needs to abuse Stockton for Milbuck to stand any chance. And he can.
Kobe is Milbuck's best player, but he's also matched up with a great defender. Not that Kobe will be stopped, but it's just bad luck, I guess.

As usual, barring the gameplans, Cold should take this. Pretty close, as the teams are even, but Penny and Kobe have to do everything for Milbuck.
Wow, I have not even mentioned Baylor! Game over. Cold wins.

Id tap the breaks on sheed being able to guard dirk. I love sheed but dirk avged 29.9 on 52/56 in the one playoff series they played each other and that's with one of the games dirk only scoring 4 because he hurt his shoulder early in the game. Granted that was young dirk and not older dirk, but dirk could handle sheed. I'll but out of their argument now but had to get that in there.

[kshutts1]

Id tap the breaks on sheed being able to guard dirk. I love sheed but dirk avged 29.9 on 52/56 in the one playoff series they played each other and that's with one of the games dirk only scoring 4 because he hurt his shoulder early in the game. Granted that was young dirk and not older dirk, but dirk could handle sheed. I'll but out of their argument now but had to get that in there.

No, I'm glad you jumped you in.

I think I underestimate Dirk a lot. And as I was doing my mini-breakdown (yeah, scary what a real breakdown would look like, huh?), I was thinking that Sheed was primarily a post defender, whereas Dirk was a perimeter scorer. So I certainly see/concede to your point.

I just liked Sheed's length on Dirk.

[raiderfan19]

I'm a mavs fan and dirk is my favorite athlete ever. Iv seen around 1000 career dirk games. People forget how athletic young dirk was(it's a big reason along with those magnificent hands that he could rebound so well when they needed him too)so that version of dirks ability to dominate sheed doesn't have quite as much to do with this matchup as older dirk does(which is why I'd have taken 2006 dirk) but dirk could get his shot off against anyone.

[barkleynash]

First of all good luck to you in this match up Kobe's Finger. You have a lot of my favorites on your team and a few guys I was targeting in the draft so if you want to make any trades just let me know... common Manu for Klay and Lenny, let's do it!... jk

Rotation:

PG: Magic 37min/ Lenny Wilkens 11 min
SG: Leonard 29 min/ Schmidt 19 min/ Klay in for injuries/extreme foul trouble or garbage time
SF: Dr J 37 min/ Scmidt 11 min
PF: Pettit 36 min/ McDyess 12 min
C: Sabonis 36 min/ McDyess 12 min/ Divac in for injures/extreme foul trouble or garbage time

Down to biz: Every team has weaknesses, mine definitely included. Obviously perimeter D will be an issue when both Magic and "The Holy Hand" Oscar Schmidt are both on the floor. That's when we are in the "just outscore the other team" mode and rely more on our great defensive rebounding. When it's just one of them it's not a big issue as they will have 2 solid perimeter defenders flanking them and taking on the tougher assignments. Like Bird, Magic was a good team defender and in the end the level he elevates his teammate's play more than makes up for his deficiencies on D.

Looking at Kobe's squad I see a well balanced team with solid D, that would also be fantastic in the open court (This series would be must see tv!) The glaring hole I see is an almost a complete lack of interior scoring. KG, Big Ben and Diaw aren't gonna get much done on the low block. Jermaine gives you a bit but he was never elite and he's also stuck coming off the bench. This deficiency will haunt them whenever they have to play half court basketball.

Sabonis vs Big Ben. For my money this is the biggest mismatch in the series. Big Ben never went against someone with the combination of size, skill and agility that a prime Sabonis possessed and he would be bewildered on how to stop him. Sabas has moves Ben hasn't even seen before, has a significant size advantage and can score on him from the 3 point line and in. The way we'll use Sabonis is whenever Oscar is in the game he'll be working the low and high post as Schmidt will bring more spacing to the court. From there he'll have options of hitting either cutters or spot up shooters (Oscar obviously, Pettit who was a fantastic mid range shooter or either Magic or Leonard both 38% from 3) When it's Dr J and Leonard then Sabonis will work the high post and step beyond the 3 point line and help space the floor with his own great range (dragging a shot blocking big out to the perimeter) and looking for cutters. This also allows other post players to get some touches (Magic and Pettit).

The fast break: This series would feature a lot of running and gunning from both teams. Kobe's fast break would be formidable with a fantastic point guard in Cp3 and athletes across the board for him to go to. The problem is that no one ever did the fast break better than Magic and the Dr and now they are together! Magic is the ultimate orchestrator in the open court and Julius the ultimate finisher. Team their brilliance with the best defensive rebound/outlet combo in the league with Sabonis and Pettit and chuck in other great athletes like Kawhi and McDyess and you have the makings of the scariest fast break team in the league! When Schmidt is in the game there's also the transition 3 that will be getting buried too so no less dangerous.

Rebounding: I believe the battle of the boards would be pretty even among our power forwards and centers. Where the difference will be very evident is from the perimeter players where Dr J, Kawhi and Magic all have significant advantages over their counterparts and it's not close. Teams that control the rebounding, most often control the series.

In the end I feel Team "Banana Hands" will def get the better of Team Kobe in the open court and half court and their superior rebounding will be just too much for them to handle. Team Barkley take it in 5 or 6 games.

thx for reading

[barkleynash]

Barkley wants to run, but Kobe's rebounding won't let him. Right off the bat, Barkley's biggest strength is somewhat negated.
Not to gameplan for someone else, but Paul will guard Leonard. He's not good enough to abuse Paul in the post, and Paul's not big enough to guard Magic in the post. Vince is. Not the best defender, but size helps.

In a half court game, I see Barkley's lack of outside shooting too big an obstacle to overcome. Kobe's team barely takes this one. Again.. game plans can change my opinion.

I completely disagree with your prognostics of the rebounding battle. My team's overall rebounding trumps Kobe's by a landslide. Prime Sabonis was a beast on the boards and Pettit was an absolute monster (20rpg the year I chose him, obviously that would drop a bunch but it still has to be respected). Those 2 hold their own against Big Ben and KG. The Big advantage is on the perimeter where Dr J avg 11rpg (which would also dip some), and both Magic and Kawhi are in the 6's. All trumping their positional counterparts.

I've addressed my outside shooting numerous times and feel though not nearly close to the top of the league it is still adequate with 4 rotation players all being able to knock down the 3 (one of them legendary from that distance.) The Dr is adequate from midrange and will also chuck in an occasional 3 at 33%, plus Pettit is fantastic from the midrange with one of the best jump shots the game has seen from the pf position.

You are def right about CP3 guarding Leonard which is to be expected and would probably do a decent job on him. I'd expect him to put Paul George on Magic but then Dr J feasts on VC. Frankly Dr J feasts on either of them but PG would obviously do a better job. Either way VC is in trouble. Magic would abuse him just as bad... Should be an interesting series

keep the discussion rollin fellas, time for bed , work in 6 hours

[kshutts1]

Rebounding may be closer than I originally assumed, but my thinking was... KG and Big Ben are legendary/elite rebounders. Paul and VC are good rebounders for their position. Paul is one of the best for his.

On your end, Pettit and Sabonis are great rebounders as well. It's close. Doc and Kawhi are better rebounders than their competition. Magic is the best rebounding PG ever, probably.

I was giving the edge to the team with what I perceived as the best front court rebounding, as I doubt you'd want to crash the glass and open yourself up to VC running a break.

As for D, yes Magic would abuse VC, but keep in mind Magic was a passer first.. defensive stopper is not AS necessary. I'd rather put the stopper on Doc.

Lastly, reading your breakdown I guess I didn't realize the extent you'd utilize Sabonis. I'll need to think about that some more.

[Gotterdammerung]

Will post my final vote after all the write-ups have been completed.

Initial take: BarkleyNash due to a greater concentration of talent and ability. KG is more of a high post scorer, but he won't have the ball in his hands much cuz it's Chris Paul's show. KobesFinger's team isn't as well put together as BarkleyNash's, cuz on the one hand you have Magic and Dr. J in the open court, plus Sabonis and Pettit in the halfcourt. OTOH you have the New School guys, with elite athleticism, but not enough shooting and not enough halfcourt offense.

Cold Soul has the 3 of 5 best players in the series. Even if it was just Wilt Chamberlain, it'll be Cold Soul anyway. Why? Cuz all he has to do is adjust the lineup by putting David Thompson in for Dennis Johnson and Stojakovic for Elgin Baylor to free up room for Wilt inside and allow Stockton to toss lobs for DT on the weakside, cuz Ewing won't be able to handle peak Wilt on the block. Milbuck will stay in the series if both Nowitzki and Kobe go off, but over the long run, Cold Soul's size and savvy will win out.

[KobesFinger]

OK, first things first. Sabonis at 7'3 is much too tall for Mr Wallace, so I'm inclined to put Wallace on Pettit and Garnett on Sabonis. Despite the obvious strength advantage Sabonis possesses over KG, KG has the length, quickness and defensive prowess to counter this. Wallace at the 4, KG at the 5.

I'd have Carter on Magic, George/Iguodala on Doc, Paul on Leonard, Wallace on Pettit and Garnett on Sabonis. Carter's poor defence will be hidden on Magic who won't be looking to score much on a team with Dr J and Sabonis, and CP3's lack of size will be hidden when guarding a player who score off cuts and corner 3s.

This also puts the rebounding firmly back in my favour IMO. Pettit's rebounding numbers are inflated due to pace. Now, I'm not saying he's a bad or overrated rebounder, but his numbers would go down if he played the modern game. And with another all time great rebounder fighting him for the rebounds, his numbers will go down more. In the 04 playoffs, Wallace averaged 13.6RPG against Shaq, 15.5 against Jermaine O'Neal and 14.3 overall. So you'll still get fast-break opportunities, just not as many.

I realise a big weakness of mine is interior scoring which is why I chose Jermaine O'Neal. He's seen as a jumpshooting big but when he posts up he's good at utilising the spin move and has a nice jump hook with either hand. And although Garnett is a high post creator and jump shooter by nature, his speed and motor guarantees him easy points. Sabonis was quick in his day but not Garnett quick.

Offensively it'll be CP3 and a lot of screens, or KG in the high post creating. People are saying CP3 HAS to run the show but he's shown in the Olympics he can defer to LeBron and KD and still be a threat. I also have a heap of outside shooting (Carter, Ginobili, McMillan and Diaw at or above 39%) which opens the floor for the high-low combination of Garnett/JO inside when I use that plus Carter and George driving when they have the opportunity.

[raiderfan19]

One thing about Vince. He's one of the best post defending guards ever and he always has been. Outside of that he wasn't anything special on d but he could at least keep from getting killed in the post

[barkleynash]

One thing about Vince. He's one of the best post defending guards ever and he always has been. Outside of that he wasn't anything special on d but he could at least keep from getting killed in the post

Ever? I question this. Certainly not when he was in his prime Toronto years. If anything his post D has gotten better as he's aged. But I agree with Kshutts in that using him vs Magic would be the smart move as Magic is obviously more pass first. Magic will still get some buckets but is more inclined to get the ball to the open man which is what we should want anyways.

As for the KG on Sabonis matchup, I do believe that is a very smart strategic move as far as KG guarding the perimeter and just being a longer and smarter player than Big Ben, he won't fall for as many tricks. But Sabonis with a considerable size and strength advantage will def get his down low. That being said I much prefer having Big Ben guard Pettit who is constantly moving to the open spots looking to score. Ben will have to sacrifice some of his help D and stay home on Pettit or he'll be getting lit up for jumpers all night. (Pettit got his jumper off against everyone including Russel and Wilt so I'm sure Ben will get him a few times just like Russel did but he def won't lock him down).

[kshutts1]

Will post my final vote after all the write-ups have been completed.

Initial take: BarkleyNash due to a greater concentration of talent and ability. KG is more of a high post scorer, but he won't have the ball in his hands much cuz it's Chris Paul's show. KobesFinger's team isn't as well put together as BarkleyNash's, cuz on the one hand you have Magic and Dr. J in the open court, plus Sabonis and Pettit in the halfcourt. OTOH you have the New School guys, with elite athleticism, but not enough shooting and not enough halfcourt offense.

Kobesfinger has great shooting. Paul, Carter, George are all 3p threats. KG is a threat from 20 feet and in. Manu off the bench. Iggy and Diaw shot around 40%, albeit on low volume. I think you're seriously underestimating their shooting.

[KobesFinger]

Ever? I question this. Certainly not when he was in his prime Toronto years. If anything his post D has gotten better as he's aged. But I agree with Kshutts in that using him vs Magic would be the smart move as Magic is obviously more pass first. Magic will still get some buckets but is more inclined to get the ball to the open man which is what we should want anyways.

As for the KG on Sabonis matchup, I do believe that is a very smart strategic move as far as KG guarding the perimeter and just being a longer and smarter player than Big Ben, he won't fall for as many tricks. But Sabonis with a considerable size and strength advantage will def get his down low. That being said I much prefer having Big Ben guard Pettit who is constantly moving to the open spots looking to score. Ben will have to sacrifice some of his help D and stay home on Pettit or he'll be getting lit up for jumpers all night. (Pettit got his jumper off against everyone including Russel and Wilt so I'm sure Ben will get him a few times just like Russel did but he def won't lock him down).

I was just watching the USA vs USSR game at the 1988 Olympics. Sabonis looked sluggish against David Robinson, who is the same type of player KG is: quick, long and agile who plays face-up rather than back to basket. He lost out on some rebounds due to either being outjumped or Robinson coming in out of nowhere and getting there first. He also got a hookshot stuffed in the first few minutes.

And I can live with Pettit shooting jumpers over Wallace. Wallace has the quickness and smarts to leave a bit of distance between himself and Pettit, just enough to be able to contest a jumper and be able to provide some help D on a drive.