Scottie Pippen's modern day equivelent?

[bizil]

I won't look up their team record game-by-game so I will use the all-star break as a proxy since that is around when the trade happened. The Hawks were 34-13 before the ASG, 23-12 after it. That is a negligible difference, especially when you factor in the adjustment period after such a major trade. How dominant could Wilkins be if you could trade him for a two-time all-star and not skip a beat?

How about the Clippers? 16-29 before the ASG, 11-26 afterwards. His "dominance" had little impact on either team, even though he was putting up 29/7/2 on the Clippers.



How many rings did English, Gervin, King, and Wilkins win? Gervin never reached the NBA finals. I think King and I know Wilkins never got out the second round. How could this be if they were "unstoppable", clutch and as dominant as you say they were?

Why are you comparing Pippen to players like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, and Oscar? No one has ever said he was at that level.



That is very biased. You are comparing Wilkins to Carmelo and Durant and Pippen to non-all-stars like those three? Is Odom even averaging 10 points this year?



I understand your argument and it is a legitimate one but where are the results? If Wilkins was the dominant force you are making him out to be why did he never get out the second round? The Jordan card does not work. Pippen in one prime season without Jordan did much better than Wilkins did in his typical season.



Great point. If Wilkins had a bad shooting night he was useless. He averaged 2-3 assists in his prime and was not a great defender. Pippen could put up 10/4/4 and still dominate a game defensively (see Game 3 of the 98' finals). Or how about Game 1 one the 98' ECF when he scored only 4 points?



http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_980517.html



http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...jackson/090216

(Funny how all these Dream Team players wanted to be a "mere sidekick" who was never a "superstar." )



Keep in mind Pippen's PER was deflated by being his team's primary playmaker/ballhandler since that resulted in an increased number of turnovers. This is why no PG has ever led the league in PER and no PG is top 10 all-time in PER and only two are top 20.

Pippen made his teammates better. The things that separated him from typical 20 ppg scorers don't show up on the stat sheet: defense, leadership, defense, making his teammates better, defense, playmaking, defense. This is why he tends to be underrated.

You also can't just look at scoring because Pippen was the de facto PG of the Bulls. He was asked to facilitate first, score second. Wilkins' role was to score first so the 7-9 ppg difference can't be viewed at face value.



These are false choices because you are taking extreme cases like Shaq or Carmelo versus Iggy. It would be like saying would you rather have Bill Walton or Patrick Ewing? Prime Baron Davis or prime Jason Kidd? 10' Chris Kaman or 10' Dwight Howard? Danny Granger or Bill Russell? Troy Murphy or Dennis Rodman? Etc. The superior scorer is not always the better player. If you believe that then you have have to select Ewing, Davis, Kaman, Granger, and Murphy in these comparisons since they were/are much better scorers than the other guy.

Once again I never said the superior scorer was always the better player. Iggy is an All-Star caliber player. Odom is an All-Star player talent wise. Prince is an All Star player talent wise. They are the closest thing to what Pip represented in the L. And in my mind none of those three are as good as Pip. I realize you never said Pip was as good as MJ, Big O, or Bird. My point was I would rather take guys whose floor game is as good or damn close to Pip's AND are dominant scorers over a guy like Pip or dominant scorers like Nique. I then said between guys like Pip or a guy like Nique I feel Nique has more impact on the game in the clutch and can carry a team that way. Why is that so hard for you to comprhend. That's all I'm saying. Nique was also getting 7-9 boards a game, a damn good number for a three.

Now you are on some revisonist history stuff when it comes to Nique. Danny Manning was going to be a free agent on the Clippers. They felt Danny wasn't going to come back. The Hawks knew Nique was 34 and still putting up points. But they were thinking about the future and took a gamble on Manning who was just coming into his prime. You could still get something for Nique because he was still the highest scoring SF in the L. It was a terrible idea because they learned the importance of Nique. The Hawks had nobody on offense that could provide what Nique could. Manning needed to score more points on that team for it to be successful. Manning didn't even come back to the Hawks the next season. I've heard Mookie and Lenny thought Nique was selfish and had it engineered. But what the Hawks, Mookie, and Lenny fail to realize is that Nique was the reason the Hawks were in that spot. They had Mookie, Augmon, Willis, and the others playing great D and rebounding in Willis's case. They needed a takeover guy like Nique to score buckets, especially in the clutch. Nique used to win 50 games all the time. But the Hawks teams couldn't compare to what the Celtics, Pistons, and eventually the Bulls had to offer. You can't hold that against Nique. He often times didn't have as much talent on his teams. MJ was getting bounced early all the time until his talent around him got better. Kobe was ready to leave LA until Gasol and Co. showed up.

Once again I agree that Pip was the point forward and his job wasn't to score first. But when I called him the second option before you got all defensive. You can't have it both ways. MJ was the PG for the Bulls one year and guess what he put up 30+ point and 8+ assists. Lebron puts up 30 and 7 or 8 dimes all the time. Wade does too, Big O and West did too. Pip needed to put up that time of year when MJ was gone. Pip was a vet by then so I there are no excuses. He needed to score more in order for that team to go farther. Nique would have given that Bulls team more points and just as many boards. Kukoc could have picked up even more of the point forward duties. The team would have lost out on Pip's D I admit. But that team needed a guy to put up bigger scoring numbers in order for it to try and win a ring. Pip didn't flip on that take no prisoners, this game is mine, no one can stop me from scoring mentality.

There are too many great all around players who could, even some who ran the point like BigO, Frazier, Magic, Isiah, Payton, and even Nash. Pip didn't show that ability as much as even these guys. I've been comparing Pip to 2 and threes but let's compare him to the greatest PGs, since for all intensive purpose Pip was the PG for the Bulls. The PGs I just listed even showed more of an ability to take over a game scoring when needed. Magic's career high in points is just as much as Pip's. Isiah's and Payton's too. And all got more assists than Pip in those years. I'm not even gonna bring up the infamous Big O! So even when compared to PGs Pip takes a backseat when it comes to clutch, take a team by the throat, this game is mine, no one can stop me from scoring moments. And those guys are better passers than a great passer in Pip. You can deny this all you want but this is the main thing that holds Pip back historically. He's regarded anywhere from 30-50 all time. If he could have showed this ability more often he could be top 15 or 20 all time. Once again Pip is a first ballot HOFer, the greatest defensive SF ever, and top 10 SF of all time.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

NBA Comparison: Scottie Pippen
Aran Smith - 6/27/2006
Strengths: Elite run/jump athlete who finishes well above the rim ... High flyer ... Very versatile... Does everything well ... Complete offensive arsenal... Can hit the mid range jumper... Excellent at slashing to the hoop... Accurate passer who is very unselfish... Does the majority of his damage in the post ... Very tough to defend... Doesnt get pushed around down low ... Runs the floor well ... Tough on the boards... Works harder than everyone else on the court ... Will most likely play on the wing at the next level ... Extremely long (7-3 wingspan) and freakishly athletic ... Has shows tremendous potential. Late to the game, so his lack of a great feel could improve over time, he wasn't seriously coached until he was a junior in high school ...

He is everything scottie pippen wishes he was. His prime will truely be the improved version of Pippen. Right now he is not there though in his 4th year he is only 23 years old,but he has shown flashes of pure domination, a legit number #1 option something Pippen wasn't. I really believe he can average 25points 8 rebounds and 3 assists in his prime. He just needs to be a better team have a higher IQ for the game, stop settling for so many jumpers, drive more, playing defense and he will be there give him a few years. He won't be doing it for Memphis since it is Mayo's team and we are letting him go this offseason. But if he gets overpaid which he will to Twolves or Knicks he will explode and reach his Pippen potential.

[Alhazred]

Several of them, notably the '64 and '65 teams. And whilst the '86 team was one of the GOAT's, Jabbar never played a second of postseason action against them.

Yeah, I forgot about LA not playing in the Finals that year. Still, I think the 85 or 87 Celtics would match up well, too. A frontcourt of Bird, Parish and McHale is superior to Russell/Havlicek/Heinsohn, imo and DJ plus Ainge are good enough to deal with Sam and KC Jones.