Is it true that MJ benefitted from playing in the 80s/90s?

[3ball]

So fcking delusional Even with an all-star, he's not getting through the Celtics/Pistons/Lakers his first 3-4 years in the league, FOH

Why not?

He basically beat the peak Pistons in 90' with just 1 all-star (pip averaged 16 on 43%), so he would definitely beat the Lakers and Celtics with a prime Pippen or other star

and I'm not saying he wins every year - but if he basically beat the peak Pistons with young pip in 1990, then he's at least going .500 against the Celtics/Lakers with prime Pip or another star..

One thing's certain - he isn't going 2/6 including 2 sweeps, 2 record defeats, and a goat choke like lebron did against spurs/warriors/mavs... We can agree on that much, right?...


Facing great teams doesn't prevent a star from fielding great teams themselves that can compete EVENLY (i.e. lakers/celtics competed evenly in the 80's)... But Lebron is 2/6 including record blowouts and debacles, so he isn't competing evenly

[LAmbruh]

hornacek/ehlo, weak conference, shortened 3pt line, illegal defense, etc


yeah it's safe to say so

[Ainosterhaspie]

Because he had no all-star teammate like everyone else had

if MJ had an all-star teammate in the 80's, he would've won a bunch of rings in the 80's instead of the 90's...

The instant he got just 1 all-star, he was unbeatable - MJ needed the least help ever .. it's a fact... So you keep bringing up the 80's when he had no help, which is dumb.. and yet he still almost beat the champs in 89' with pip getting 9 ppg on 40%

Of course, he needed the least help because he scored the most - it's intuitive

Btw, his goat stats in the 80's show that he had the easiest time of anyone in the 80's.. Chuck Daly said MJ was "embarrassing the league, he was that good"

Why are you so defensive. I'm not attacking MJ. He's not seen as GOAT because of the 80s, he's seen as GOAT because of the 90s. Sure he laid some groundwork in the 80s, but that's all it was.

Facing Bird's peak Celtics in 86 wasn't some cruise series, neither was facing Pistons in 88, 89. I'm attacking OP, not Jordan. I don't reflexively try to diminish everything Jordan did unlike some people in this forum do for Jordan and other ATGs. OP is silly to include the 80s. That's all I'm saying. It's not a knock on Jordan that he wasn't winning those years. He wasn't ready and neither was his team. Guys don't generally lead teams to titles that young unless circumstances line up very favorably for them.

[superduper]

hornacek/ehlo, weak conference, shortened 3pt line, illegal defense, etc


yeah it's safe to say so

barea/terry, weak conference, 3pt chucking/empty paints, non-existent defense, etc

yeah it's safe to say Bran benefitted from the last 20 years

[ImKobe]

Vast majority of people agree he would be irrelevant if he was playing in the 3ball era. I just wanted further confirmation because I agree with them. In fact I believe he would just be Donovan Mitchell with worse 3 point shooting. I would even put Kobe over him to round out my top 15 all time list

So the post-2004 era doesn't have a direct correlation to inflated offensive numbers caused by rule changes?

[Ainosterhaspie]

So the post-2004 era doesn't have a direct correlation to inflated offensive numbers caused by rule changes?

Nope. League average DRtg from 2004 to 2018 was slightly better than the average from 85 to 98.

[LAmbruh]

Nope. League average DRtg from 2004 to 2018 was slightly better than the average from 85 to 98.

Ouch

[egokiller]

Imagine designing an entire website for a nephew that hates his life because he never witnessed GOAT MJ and needs an outlet to deal with his frustration over it.

[3ball]

Nope. League average DRtg from 2004 to 2018 was slightly better than the average from 85 to 98.

During the time that both players had contenders, average drtg was much higher during lebron's time (09-18') than Jordan's (90-98')

[Ainosterhaspie]

During the time that both players had contenders, average drtg was much higher during lebron's time (09-18') than Jordan's (90-98')

Nope. Try again.

107.3 league average DRtg from 90-98.
107.0 league average DRtg from 09-18.

[3ball]

Sure he laid some groundwork in the 80s, [COLOR="DarkRed"]but that's all it was.[/COLOR]

It was everything

"The shot" that he hit in 1989 was the difference between another 1st Round exit/rebuild, versus being ECF vets, rivals to the champs and 1 year away from a title

If he misses that shot, he probably fails to win in Chicago and needs to team-hop to win...

[COLOR="Navy"]Remember - if MJ averaged 38/8/8 on 49% like Lebron did against the #4 SRS Magic in 2009, then he fails to beat the #1 SRS Cavs, which required 40/6/8 on 53% and "the shot" to beat them.. (this is while pippen had worse stats than Mo and the Bulls had a worse defense)
[/COLOR]

Facing Bird's peak Celtics in 86 wasn't some cruise series, neither was facing Pistons in 88, 89. I'm attacking OP, not Jordan. I don't reflexively try to diminish everything Jordan did unlike some people in this forum do for Jordan and other ATGs. OP is silly to include the 80s. That's all I'm saying. It's not a knock on Jordan that he wasn't winning those years. [COLOR="Blue"]He wasn't ready[/COLOR] and neither was his team. Guys don't generally lead teams to titles that young unless circumstances line up very favorably for them.

Who was more ready to compete on the championship level in their first 3 tries against champs??

Jordan 86' vs. champs - 44 on 50%
Lebron 07' vs. champs - 22 on 36%

Jordan 89-90' vs. champs - 31 on 47%
Lebron 2008.. vs. champs - 26 on 35%

Lebron 2011.. vs. champs - 18 on 47%

As usual, anything you day negative about MJ, applies more to Lebron

He's not seen as GOAT because of the 80s, he's seen as GOAT because of the 90s.

His time in the 80's gave us the goat 2-way season (88') and playoff record (63) - both goat things... It also proved he could carry 6 seeds to the ECF, while playing the champs the toughest, despite 9 ppg on 40% from his 2nd option

Otoh, the 90's simply showed what we already knew - once MJ got a small amount of legit help (18 ppg pippen), it was enough for a dynasty - he didn't need a team stacked with multiple stars like virtually every other top 10 candidate needs... he was already knocking on the door with shit help in 89' and 90'..
.

[Ainosterhaspie]

You keep trying to pick a fight. I'm not bashing on Jordan here. Not sure why you are feeling the need to defend him. OP seems to suggest that the 80s were weak and that boosts Jordan's legacy unfairly or something. I'm just saying, even if we pretend what he's saying is true (and I'm not saying it is), so what? Jordan became GOAT in the 90s. It doesn't matter if the 80s were weak or not. I don't get why you think that's some sort of attack on Jordan or why you feel compelled to insert LeBron into this.

[3ball]

You keep trying to pick a fight. I'm not bashing on Jordan here. Not sure why you are feeling the need to defend him. OP seems to suggest that the 80s were weak and that boosts Jordan's legacy unfairly or something. I'm just saying, even if we pretend what he's saying is true (and I'm not saying it is), so what? Jordan became GOAT in the 90s. It doesn't matter if the 80s were weak or not. I don't get why you think that's some sort of attack on Jordan or why you feel compelled to insert LeBron into this.

You snuck some shots in there

But remember - if MJ averaged 38/8/8 on 49% like Lebron did against the #4 SRS Magic in 09', then he fails to beat the #1 SRS Cavs in 89', which required 40/6/8 on 53% and "the shot" to beat them.. (this is while pippen had worse stats than Mo and the Bulls had a worse defense)

[Turbo Slayer]

Bow down to LeGOAT!!!

[ImKobe]

Nope. League average DRtg from 2004 to 2018 was slightly better than the average from 85 to 98.

So the offensive numbers did not go up post-2004?

League Ortg was at 102.9 in 2004, lowest since 1998-99 lockout season(excluding that, lowest since the 77-78 season). Immediately following the rule changes it went to 106.1 and climbed up to 108.3 in 2009, which was the highest in league history. We've seen that mark broken for 3 straight years now.

But rule changes have nothing to do with this. Perimeter players did not see their numbers increase after they completely banned handchecking .