Kevin Durant at age 23 was better than LeBron was at age 23

[LamarOdom]

tbh id agree with you, just trollin earlier

durant is great right now, and you can make a case that hes better, but for me, its definitely lebron

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's debatable. My biggest problem with pre-'09 Lebron was his jump shot. His shooting wasn't as bad as '07 in '08, but it was still erratic, and I think that got exposed vs Boston. He averaged 27/6/8 with 2.1 spg and 1.3 bpg, but he shot just 36% and averaged over 5 turnovers and that was with the big game 7. He had a good series defensively, though.

Regardless, it always says a lot to me when a player's game gets exposed in the playoffs. Players can have a key flaw and put up great numbers in the regular season because defenses aren't the same, you face plenty of bad teams, and teams aren't as focused consistently and teams aren't seeing you 4-7 consecutive games.

I felt that happened with Durant after his 30 ppg season in '10, he hasn't averaged 30 since, but he's become a better player, though he did also shoot a career high % this year and is clearly a more complete player. Others whose game I thought got exposed in the playoffs was David Robinson, who never had a good back to the basket game which is why his scoring plummeted in the postseason, and Karl Malone, who did rely quite a bit on running the floor and Stockton setting him up for easy baskets, more in the late 80's/early 90's.

Lebron did have a better rebounding season, though. Durant had just 0.6 offensive rebounds per game, Lebron averaged 1.8 in '08, but it's not really the difference, same with defense, both were good in the seasons mentioned. Wouldn't call either elite, though.

Lebron's passing and playmaking is a huge advantage, and it's something I've always valued vs other perimeter players because he's really the best non-PG in that area since Bird. Durant has gotten better and is a pretty good passer, his handles have improved as well, but he's still well below Lebron.

Despite his shooting, '08 Lebron was so physically dominant at 6'8", 260 with his athleticism. Durant isn't close to the same threat off the dribble, but teams certainly aren't backing off Durant, and he's also a superior off the ball player.

Durant is unquestionably the better scorer and his scoring also comes more within the flow of the offense, but he's not going to impact a game much when he's not scoring, while Lebron can still make a big impact.

Lebron in '08 would be better at carrying a weaker team, but I think I'd lean towards Durant on a team with talent, so I'll go with him. Lebron has definitely been better than Durant the last 4 years, though.

Excuse me did I say garbage? what I meant to say was superstars

I give Lebron credit for his playmaking during that run, but his jump shot was a real problem for me back then. Thankfully within the last year, I found out shooting numbers are available, and that Lebron shot just 34% from 16-23 feet in addition to just 32% on 3s and 70% from the line.

It's also worth noting that the Wizards didn't have their 2 best players Arenas and Butler for the playoffs and the Nets big men were Mikki Moore, Jason Collins and Josh Boone. Plus, that series was actually competitive, and that's with Vince Carter shooting 35% for the Nets, and they relied heavily on him for offense, so Lebron was fortunate to have the opposing team's star struggle so much.

Detroit was still a good team, but their defense had already fallen off when Flip took over in '06, and Ben Wallace had mentioned that they barely worked on defense anymore. Flip has always been a good offensive coach, but not much of a defensive coach. They fell off more in '07 without Big Ben to just the 7th best defensive team.

Cleveland was a top 4 defensive team and they outrebounded opponents by 3.7 rpg. He didn't have the best offensive support, but his defensive help and rebounding help was excellent. And the role players stepped up at the perfect times whether it was Gibson, Marshall or Pavlovic.

I was surprised at the time when they beat Detroit, but their team numbers were very close in the regular season. Detroit went 53-29 and Cleveland went 50-32 in the same division and Detroit outscored opponents by 4.2 ppg while Cleveland outscored opponents by 3.8 ppg.

The '07 run just didn't impress me much, and in general, it was arguably Lebron's worst year outside of his rookie season, and the only other year you could argue was worse for him was '05, and even then, he shot better.

He's become an unbelievable player, but that jump shot at the time was difficult for me to look past.

[StateOfMind12]

Durant is a more efficient shooter than 08 Lebron, but he has more turnovers, in fewer minutes, setting up his teammates far less, and rarely handling the ball. Imo, they're close enough in production that it just comes down to which skillset you need on your team. I doubt Durant would've taken that Cavs team very far, but I don't think that OKC would be this good with 08 Lebron.

Durant would have at least gotten them to the 2nd round of the playoffs with that '08 Cavs team.

Anyways, you made a good point about how Durant and LeBron wouldn't have been as successful if they had swapped roles and teams. I'm not sure why people keep bringing up what people did in '07 anyways when he didn't even win a championship. The ultimate goal is to win a championship, not make the championship series.

This LamarOdom guy is pretty much arguing nothing then again I'm purposely ignoring him because he is not worth the time.

You can only argue what they were and Durant's numbers backup that he was better at age 23 than LeBron's were at age 23. Numbers don't mean everything but even if we ignore them and just simply use the eye test or take it into context, I would still say Durant was better.

[LamarOdom]

Durant would have at least gotten them to the 2nd round of the playoffs with that '08 Cavs team.

Anyways, you made a good point about how Durant and LeBron wouldn't have been as successful if they had swapped roles and teams. I'm not sure why people keep bringing up what people did in '07 anyways when he didn't even win a championship. The ultimate goal is to win a championship, not make the championship series.

This LamarOdom guy is pretty much arguing nothing then again I'm purposely ignoring him because he is not worth the time.

You can only argue what they were and Durant's numbers backup that he was better at age 23 than LeBron's were at age 23. Numbers don't mean everything but even if we ignore them and just simply use the eye test or take it into context, I would still say Durant was better.

All righty, then if I was a Bobcat I should value this season as a Heat fan should value last?

[StateOfMind12]

Lebron in '08 would be better at carrying a weaker team, but I think I'd lean towards Durant on a team with talent, so I'll go with him. Lebron has definitely been better than Durant the last 4 years, though.

Agreed. Durant is better with average or beyond average talent but LeBron is better at being the one-man army and playing with a weaker supporting cast.

It's kind of like comparing Kobe to LeBron to be honest except Kobe actually was as complete as LeBron was or close to while Durant isn't as complete but a more efficient shooter with better shot selection and better ball-movement. The ultimate difference between Kobe and LeBron was that LeBron was a better playmaker/facilitator and also that he played in a weaker conference.

I think a lot of people ignore how unbelievably weak the East was at the time. I even made a thread asking if LeBron's team and playoff accomplishments were inflated by playing in the East and it seemed like a decent amount agreed from what I could recall at least.

Honestly, getting past the 1st or 2nd round in the West was probably just as difficult of a task as it would be to win the East or make it to the ECF back in 2007 and 2008.

I mean, the Cavs don't even make the playoffs in 2008 if they played in the West and they would have been the 6th seed in the West in 2007 which would have led them playing the Spurs and we all saw what happened in the Finals when they matched up.

[Cali Syndicate]

Durant is the better scorer and rebounder.
Lebron is the better passer, by a mile, but is also a good rebounder. So that is a wash.

Defensively, Lebron was not a good defender, at all. Durant is clearly the better defender at that age.

Isn't Westbrook is the leader on that team? Durant is more of a guidance counselor.

[KG215]

I felt that happened with Durant after his 30 ppg season in '10, he hasn't averaged 30 since, but he's become a better player, though he did also shoot a career high % this year and is clearly a more complete player. Others whose game I thought got exposed in the playoffs was David Robinson, who never had a good back to the basket game which is why his scoring plummeted in the postseason, and Karl Malone, who did rely quite a bit on running the floor and Stockton setting him up for easy baskets, more in the late 80's/early 90's.

There's a reason for that.

Westbrook
09-10: 16.1 ppg, 14.1 FGA pg
10-11: 21.9 ppg, 17.0 FGA pg
11-12: 23.6 ppg, 19.2 FGA pg

And Durant went from averaging 20.3 field-goal attempts per game to 19.7 the last two seasons. Westbrook emerging into a superstar/top 10-15 player is the main reason Durant hasn't averaged 30 ppg since, and may never average 30 a game again as long as their teammates. If it wasn't for Westbrook's emergence as a great scorer, then I'm fairly confident that'd we be talking about Durant wrapping up his 3rd straight 30+ ppg season in a row to go with his three straight scoring titles. Of course if that was the case, we'd probably also be talking about OKC's second straight 1st or 2nd round playoff exit, too.

[sick_brah07]

lebron hands down was and still is the better basketball player, durant is excellent and will be a HOF for sure, durant shines a lot because his team is built perfectly around him......

think about it this way

westrbook>>>>>>>>>>>>>mo williams
harden >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pavlovic
ibaka >>>>>> gooden
perkins>ilgauskas

then consider how far lebron was taking that team


also please dont take this as a stab at OKC or Durant, they are my favourite team to watch and i think durant really is great

[lbj23clutch]

LeBron James at 21 years old= 31/7/7 on 48% with an injured Larry Hughes as the 2nd best player.

[che guevara]

To the people saying Lebron wasn't a good defender: just because the media didn't catch on until 2009 doesn't mean he wasn't a good defender in prior seasons.

Lebron's reputation as a bad defender came from his first two seasons when he legitimately did fall asleep on defense, lose his man, blow rotations and things like that. He improved immensely over his first few years though, and was a solid, above average defender by '07 and a very good one by '08. In fact, the best defense I've ever seen Lebron play came during the first 20 games of the '07-'08 season when he was playing with balls to the wall intensity on every play.

[28renyoy]

LeBron James at 21 years old= 31/7/7 on 48% with an injured Larry Hughes as the 2nd best player.

He was taking 23 shots a game. Durant at 21 averaged 30 a game on 20 shots. You give 23 year old Durant 23 shots a game and he's at 35 ppg

[inclinerator]

durant has the better jumper, lebron everything else

[28renyoy]

durant has the better jumper, lebron everything else

Where do people get this idea?

They act like LeBron is the better rebounder, shot blocker, off the ball player, defender, etc.

Because he's the better passer he's better at everything else?

[knicksman]

durant is a more impactful player than lebron. His style makes teammates better. If a allstar version of durant in ray allen, miller are more impactful than players like iverson, carter, tmac then how much for the superstar version. He plays within the flow of the offense. Thats why at the age of 21, he already had a 50 win team on a tough western while lebron is still missing the playoffs in a weak east team.

[KG215]

Where do people get this idea?

They act like LeBron is the better rebounder, shot blocker, off the ball player, defender, etc.

Because he's the better passer he's better at everything else?

I can't believe this, but I'm going to actually agree with you. 23 year old Durant may not be as good as 23 year old Lebron as a shot-blocker, ball thief, off-ball defender, or rebounder, but it's not like Lebron was light years ahead of Durant in those categories at 23. In fact, current Lebron isn't leaps and bounds better in those categories than 23 year old Durant. Is he better? Probably, but the only category he's A LOT better than Durant right now, is as a playmaker. I don't see Durant ever being nearly as good as Lebron as a playmaker, but I can see Durant having a few 4.5-5 apg seasons.