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Old 11-29-2018, 04:27 PM   #61
Walk on Water
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny98
LeBron is the primary playmaker on his team (7.1APG)

Kawhi isn't a playmaker at all so obviously his time of possession is low (3.2 APG)

Kuzma and Hart have been flourishing next to LeBron and Ingrams production remains roughly the same.

What matters most is the Lakers as a team have gone from bottom 10 to top 10 ranked offensively with the aquisition of LeBron and they haven't even closed to peak yet since it's a brand new team that's still getting used to eachover


With the ball in his hands that much, shouldn't he be averaging even more assists? Look at how many assists Magic averaged.
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:36 PM   #62
Ne 1
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

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Originally Posted by 3ball
Jordan and Kobe's teams ranked much higher than lebron's in assists

So their teammates were getting assisted more than lebron's, making your claim incorrect

This is further proof of what we already know as common knowledge: teamwork/ball movement gets teammates more/better looks than lebron's ball-domination
LeBron dominates the ball less than Jordan and Kobe do, the difference is LeBron actually passes it while they jack up shots. At least Jordan makes most of his shots while Kobe misses them.
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:37 PM   #63
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

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Originally Posted by Ne 1
LeBron dominates the ball less than Jordan and Kobe do, the difference is LeBron actually passes it while they jack up shots. At least Jordan makes most of his shots while Kobe misses them.

Kobe and Klay have the same FG%
Kobe and Duncan have the same TS%

If he's a chucker so are they.
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:52 PM   #64
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

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Originally Posted by 3ball
You're making my point

Lebron's PG time of possession gives his team TWO guys with a PG-level time of possession, as you just posted above.. so teammates have less time with the ball alongside lebron then they have on other teams where the forward doesn't hold the ball a pg amount..

In addition to less time with the ball, teammates have less opportunity to assist because lebron has an abnormally-low assisted rate, like all pg's (pg's score on their own off-the-dribble)..

So LeBron's presence as a 2nd PG gives teammates less time with the ball and less opportunity to assist then they'd have on other teams - it's statistical fact - look how much ingram and ball's time of possession cratered this year.. how can they grow if LeBron won't let them hold the ball? His style stops teammate growth, plain and simple - always has

Plenty of teams have two guys handling the ball a lot. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that.

Are you serious?

You've created a narrative that doesn't jive with reality.
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Old 11-30-2018, 11:46 AM   #65
tamaraw08
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

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Originally Posted by StrongLurk
Plenty of teams have two guys handling the ball a lot. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that.

Are you serious?

You've created a narrative that doesn't jive with reality.

Lebron with Kyrie always ranked 3rd best in offense in the league the time they were together. When Kyrie got replaced by the oft injured Thomas, Cavs were still 5th best in the league, go figure. btw, Cavs ranked 22nd and 20th in assists before Lebron returned there.
Fans including me doubted if Harden/CP3 combo would work but their team was the BEST IN THE LEAGUE in offensive rating last year.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:00 PM   #66
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

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Originally Posted by StrongLurk

Plenty of teams have two guys handling the ball a lot. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that.

Are you serious?

Only the rockets have 2 guys with PG time of possession, and they're last in assists

Even when the rockets were stacked last year, they still failed to reach championship level, similar to lebron's teams

And I haven't "created a narrative"... I've presented facts about lebron's abnormally high time with the ball and low assisted rate that give teammates less time with the ball and opportunity to assist, respectively.. it's math that you can't refute
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:34 PM   #67
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

Magic was a true PG.

Guys seem to confuse true PG with a great passer.

Lebron is an all time great passer because he can make every type of pass humanly possible. Speed, strength, accuracy, everything is there. But he's not a true PG and even he would tell people that.

He's point forward at the most elite level and he's an attacker. True point guards are looking to see who should be fed the ball and given opportunities. True PG's also maintain discipline.

Lebron makes plays based off what will create a scoring opportunity. Some posters will say he "pads" assists but I think he reads the game and figures out the where the highest chance is to score.

Playing true PG requires immense discipline and that's not Lebron's strong suit. Rondo and Ball are as true PG as you can get.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:45 PM   #68
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
Only the rockets have 2 guys with PG time of possession, and they're last in assists

Even when the rockets were stacked last year, they still failed to reach championship level, similar to lebron's teams

And I haven't "created a narrative"... I've presented facts about lebron's abnormally high time with the ball and low assisted rate that give teammates less time with the ball and opportunity to assist, respectively.. it's math that you can't refute

Houston led the Warriors 3-2 last WCF and was 1 good 2nd half away from beating GSW.
They were no. 1 in offense in the regular season. No. 2 2 years ago.
Lebron with Kyrie was no. 3 in offense all 3 years. Still went number 5 best when Kyrie got replaced by the injured Thomas.
I agree that Lebronball or Harden Ball is not aesthetically pleasing.
I prefer more motion offense and good ball movement but there's a reason why ALL 30 teams are not using triangle and princeton offense.
The last one that tried the NY Knicks, Phil got fired for it.
MJ is the majority owner of the Hornets for 8 years now and he's not hiring coaches that has the triangle in mind.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:48 PM   #69
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Drew
"Dat boy Bron got a young Scottie Pippen on his team. A playmaker. A great defender! All any man could want in a sidekick. Be no surprise if they beat the Warriors with 5 all stars. He got the next "Loooooooong" Scottie Pippen! You know why they call him long right? Madonna do! He better win now with this stud!"





Turn around and:



"Young Scottie Pippen wasnt shit! How was Jordan supposed to win with young Scottie Pippen?! Scottie Pippen once pissed himself before a key game 5 then went 2-27 with 9 turnovers and 8 fouls. Yes 8! Jordan let him borrow two of his and he still couldnt finish the game. Craig Ehlo was blowing by that flat footed moose face bitch like a Camaro vs a Geo and all little Scotty "Migraine" Pippen could do is foul that slow white man as he laid it in. I tell you that long faced ***** cost my man 4 rings personally."




Next its


"Oh boy! Bron bron got decorated veterans on defense. Tyson? Mcgee? Champions. Winning mentality. 18 year veteran and a guy who just soaked up that winning culture in Golden State. Thats how it work see. He played with all them winners. Won rings. Brings that winning mindset to LA. You can smell the success coming off them two! Bitch got no excuses. Easy road."


Same day:






"Dennis Rodman, Bill Cartwright, and Robert Parish were 137 years old when Jordan had em. Bill was 12 years in when Jordan got him! His all star days long past. Robert Parish died in the second quarter vs the Hornets in 1997. Jordan brought him back. Pulled him away from the light himself. Dont get me started on Rodman. 2 time DPOY? 2 time champ when he got to the Bulls? Them rings dont count. He was a role player on the Pistons. What you think you just soak up being a winner because you played on a team that was good no matter what? ***** learn the game. Jordan aint have no help inside."





One week its:







"These days you cant play defense! All that spacing! These numbers dont mean shit. Cant compare it to my day. I once asked Larry Bird what todays numbers mean and you know what he said? He said everybody in the NBA gets 17 points when they check in the game. Dont even look at these numbers. Packed paints? That was defense. I once saw Terrence "Bumrusha" Jones hit Michael Jordan directly in the left canine with a pillowcase full of door knobs on a drive and what the ref say? Ref aint say nothin cause we aint have no refs! We called our own fouls! Jordan thanked Terrence for the motivation in mid air and finished the play. We used to call that a And-None cause you aint get no free throw! I swear these boys today is soft as a jello titty. These numbers dont mean shit. All this damn scoring...."



Two days later










"Bron got 2 17ppg scorers. More than Mike had. Thats better help. The points make them great help. Them points count now. Jordan couldnt get 17 points from 2 teammates. That means this is a better team!"
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:53 PM   #70
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamaraw08
Houston led the Warriors 3-2 last WCF and was 1 good 2nd half away from beating GSW.
They were no. 1 in offense in the regular season. No. 2 2 years ago.
Lebron with Kyrie was no. 3 in offense all 3 years. Still went number 5 best when Kyrie got replaced by the injured Thomas.
I agree that Lebronball or Harden Ball is not aesthetically pleasing.
I prefer more motion offense and good ball movement but there's a reason why ALL 30 teams are not using triangle and princeton offense.
The last one that tried the NY Knicks, Phil got fired for it.
MJ is the majority owner of the Hornets for 8 years now and he's not hiring coaches that has the triangle in mind.
The triangle only works with a top 10 all-time player that doesn't have to dominate the ball

So it's remarkable that MJ and Kobe could make a shit offense like that work, when no one else could - ur right - it's been tried many times but only MJ and Kobe made it work

And the 2 pg approach (no rings that I can think of) isn't nearly as successful as the motion offense/system approach (most of the rings I can think of)... So lebron's "low team assist' approach gives his teams longer odds... indeed, the common thread in lebron's last 4 Finals defeats are massive deficits in team assists, teamwork, ball movement and brand of basketball
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Old 12-02-2018, 01:05 AM   #71
tamaraw08
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Default Re: Time with the ball per game for top forwards and impact on Lakers

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ball
The triangle only works with a top 10 all-time player that doesn't have to dominate the ball

So it's remarkable that MJ and Kobe could make a shit offense like that work, when no one else could - ur right - it's been tried many times but only MJ and Kobe made it work

And the 2 pg approach (no rings that I can think of) isn't nearly as successful as the motion offense/system approach (most of the rings I can think of)... So lebron's "low team assist' approach gives his teams longer odds... indeed, the common thread in lebron's last 4 Finals defeats are massive deficits in team assists, teamwork, ball movement and brand of basketball

Now that offense that enhances great teamwork and high assists is a shit offense.
Only MJ and Kobe? what about Shaq? or esp Pippen without MJ?
BTW the 09 Lakers with Kobe and Phil only ranked 11th best in offense and 15TH in assists.
The massive deficit vs GSW last playoffs isn't because of Lebron ball, it's because he was missing a very good playmaker in Kyrie just like MJ who failed to win a chip without Pippen.
Go ahead and ignore the fact that Lebron ball with Kyrie resulted in 3rd best offense in ALL 3 years together AND Harden in essence actually dominates the ball more the past 4 years actually produces very good results too.
Triangle and Princeton offense will not work for any player.
Lebron without a great coach have figured out a way to make it work.
It's not pretty but it worked.
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