Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[GMATCallahan]

You also are going to overlook his injuries it looks like.

Injuries are the knock on K.J., and that's understandable. However, you also have to understand the injuries. Some feel that in the history of the NBA, no one has penetrated the lane and attacked the basket like K.J., and he played in an extremely physical era. As Danny Ainge once said, in the 1990s, referees just stopped calling fouls, and K.J. paid the price. To quote a post of mine:

As the '95-'96 ESPN NBA preview noted, when K.J. was hot, it seemed like the only way to stop him was to hurt him. Well, don't think that teams didn't realize that and didn't try to make him pay a price when he rocketed through lane and attacked the rim. In 2001, an Arizona Republic sportswriter (Norm Frauenheim) recalled that opponents would sometimes pummel K.J. into the floor at old Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix so hard that it seemed as if the earth was shaking.

In today's NBA, I'd bet that K.J. would hold up much better. Besides, Tiny Archibald played in 876 of 1,148 potential regular season games over the 14-season span of his career (1971-1984), a 76.3% rate. K.J., meanwhile, played in 729 of 902 potential regular season games over the 11-season span of his career (1988-1998), an 80.8% rate (I'm not counting K.J.'s brief comeback in the spring of 2000 when he popped out of a two-year, official retirement to help the Suns after Jason Kidd broke his ankle). And K.J. played in 105 of 106 potential playoff games (99.1%).

[Glove_20]

I disagree. First, the fourth tier is much too low for K.J. Guards like Moncrief, Lever, and Allen were fine players, but they were limited in the kind of impact that they could make and where they could lead a team. The third tier is acceptable, but I think that K.J. could fit in quite well in the second tier. If you look at him and Drexler, their value was really pretty similar, and K.J. elevated his teammates in ways that Bryant and Gervin could not. There's more to basketball than volume scoring and one-on-one play, and in fact, I might place Archibald in the second tier as well.

You talk about K.J.'s three-four years, but they represented one of the best three-four year runs in NBA history, by anyone. From 1989-1991, K.J. became the third player ever to average at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in each of three consecutive seasons (joining Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas), averaging 21.7 points, 11.3 assists, a .507 field goal percentage, an .854 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.7 steals. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, an .843 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.6 steals. I challenge you to find how many guards in NBA history have ever put up numbers at that level over a three or four-year stretch, especially combining that degree of production in both points and assists with that stratum of shooting efficiency. I believe that the only guy who'll you find at that level in each of the "big three" categories (points, assists, and field goal percentage, the three most important for a star guard) is Magic Johnson, who from 1987-1990 averaged 22.1 points, 12.1 assists, a .502 field goal percentage, and an .876 free throw percentage (plus 6.8 rebounds and 1.7 steals). The only other player who'll be in that ballpark is Oscar Robertson.

What's true of three-four years is also true of nine. Over a nine-season run from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points, 10.0 assists, and a .497 field goal percentage. Again, the only other players in NBA history to reach a similar level of elite effectiveness in all three categories (which, again, are the three most important for a star guard and especially a star point guard) are Magic Johnson from 1983-1991 (20.0/12.2/.518) and Oscar Robertson from 1962-1970 (29.1/10.3/.490). Those three (Magic, Oscar, K.J.) are in a league of their own when combining elite effectiveness in the most vital statistical categories for a star playmaker, and only Magic combined greatness in all three better than K.J. over either a three-four year run or virtually an entire decade.

Also just to add on Oscar's part, it is easier to put up good stats when your teammates are not that good and you don't make playoffs.

KJ and Magic are the only 2 putting up those big numbers, while still having a playoff team all their prime. While Oscar, he failed to make the playoffs many times.

[Glove_20]

But when he did get players around him, he still put numbers (though not as great), made All-NBA and All-Star teams, won All-Star MVP and helped Boston to a title.

And hwas out of his prime as well. Putting up 14/8 isn't really "good'. I don't know why you think it is.


And like I said, either way, 1 playoff in prime, is sad. It really is, and he didn't play well in that playoff series, and they lost as well.

To add on, it is easier to put up great stats when you are told to have the ball a lot because your teammates aren't as great. But whats the point of all the numbers when your team isn't going to the playoffs?


Lastly, if you missed the quote GMAT posted,

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."

That was from Archibald towards Kevin Johnson.









Anyways, just another to add against Archibald. He played in an era where the ABA was at his best. So the competetion in the NBA for Archibald wasn't as great either. Yet he still failed to make playoffs. Even with the competetion being a little washed down. This also has an overall impact on his numbers as well.

[L.Kizzle]

Also just to add on Oscar's part, it is easier to put up good stats when your teammates are not that good and you don't make playoffs.

KJ and Magic are the only 2 putting up those big numbers, while still having a playoff team all their prime. While Oscar, he failed to make the playoffs many times.

Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.

[Glove_20]

Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.

You missed the point though.

I was talking mainly about Oscar Robertson's numbers. And said it was because his team wasn't stacked, he was able to put up good numbers. Its easier to put up good numbers with a bad team.

Lastly, I still think, with the numbers he put up, they should've gone at least to playoffs. I mean, it seems like, wow he's putting such great numbers, but his team isn't going to the playoffs? Gary Payton in 2000 had starcasts just as bad, yet he was able to take them to the playoffs.

Payton's best players with him were:

Ruben Patterson (2nd year)
Vin Baker (Put 12/6 year before)

Yet he still took them to the playoffs, in the mighty west too.

[L.Kizzle]

You missed the point though.

I was talking mainly about Oscar Robertson's numbers. And said it was because his team wasn't stacked, he was able to put up good numbers. Its easier to put up good numbers with a bad team.

Lastly, I still think, with the numbers he put up, they should've gone at least to playoffs. I mean, it seems like, wow he's putting such great numbers, but his team isn't going to the playoffs? Gary Payton in 2000 had starcasts just as bad, yet he was able to take them to the playoffs.

Payton's best players with him were:

Ruben Patterson (2nd year)
Vin Baker (Put 12/6 year before)

Yet he still took them to the playoffs, in the mighty west too.

The two seasons Oscar didn't make it were in the late 1960's The Celtics were the Celtics, New York was starting to become a force and Wes Unseld and Pearl made Baltimore a contender. Then you had Phila with Hal Greer, Cunningham and Chet Walker so those a are the four squads (only four teams made it from each conferene back then).


Thats another thing, since only four squads made the playoffs back then (not 8 as it is now) it was even tougher to make the post-season. And if you weren't on stacked squads like Tiny and Oscar were, you had your work cut out for you.

[Glove_20]

The two seasons Oscar didn't make it were in the late 1960's The Celtics were the Celtics, New York was starting to become a force and Wes Unseld and Pearl made Baltimore a contender. Then you had Phila with Hal Greer, Cunningham and Chet Walker so those a are the four squads (only four teams made it from each conferene back then).


Thats another thing, since only four squads made the playoffs back then (not 8 as it is now) it was even tougher to make the post-season. And if you weren't on stacked squads like Tiny and Oscar were, you had your work cut out for you.

First of all, I think he didn't make it the last 3 years in Cincinnati.

2nd, its not just the playoffs, their record also had fallen. He didn't finish above .500 any of the years.

And as for Tiny, he couldn't make it to the playoffs in the mid 70s. After the Boston, Philly, and Laker dynasties had fallen. So that excuse does not work for Tiny Archibald.

And especially since in his prime, ABA was at its strongest, so there was less competition overall anyways.

[L.Kizzle]

Tiny did play on some pretty terrible teams. Look at the best team he played for in his prime, the Kansas City-Omaha Kings. Their roster included:

- Jalen Rose's father Jimmy Walker
- Don Kojis in his last season
- current coaches in D'Antonio and Rick Adleman
- Scott Wedman

That was his best team, they made the playoffs. I'm pretty sure it's hard to have two hometown teams.

[Glove_20]

Tiny did play on some pretty terrible teams. Look at the best team he played for in his prime, the Kansas City-Omaha Kings. Their roster included:

- Jalen Rose's father Jimmy Walker
- Don Kojis in his last season
- current coaches in D'Antonio and Rick Adleman
- Scott Wedman

That was his best team, they made the playoffs. I'm pretty sure it's hard to have two hometown teams.

Yeah no doubt they weren't good. But once again, its still possible to take yoru team to the playoffs. Or at least post a good record. Jimmy Walker stayed with Tiny for a while, yet only this year they made playoffs.

And even on the 34/11, no playoffs.


But also, his stats are inflated too, since they had bad teams, he got the ball more.

Lastly, don't forget the ABA effect. ABA was loaded in his prime, so he is lucky there wasn't tougher competetion against him, thoug he would have a better team, but it ultimately would've hurt his stats and he wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs again.

[L.Kizzle]

Yeah no doubt they weren't good. But once again, its still possible to take yoru team to the playoffs. Or at least post a good record. Jimmy Walker stayed with Tiny for a while, yet only this year they made playoffs.

And even on the 34/11, no playoffs.


But also, his stats are inflated too, since they had bad teams, he got the ball more.

Lastly, don't forget the ABA effect. ABA was loaded in his prime, so he is lucky there wasn't tougher competetion against him, thoug he would have a better team, but it ultimately would've hurt his stats and he wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs again.

Actually, I think the ABA would have helped Nate more then it would have hurt him. Imagine some of the players from the ABA being his teammate. Maybe an Artis Gilmore, or David Thompson or somebody.


Peoole credit Larry and Magic with the resurgence of the NBA, but the ABA coming into the NBA was as big of an impact as they were.

[GMATCallahan]

Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about Robertson (although he did have an All-Star power player in Wayne Embry through 1966 and a very solid power forward named Happy Hairston), but K.J. had a lot to do with some of those All-Star appearances by his teammates. Hornacek made his only All-Star Game playing next to K.J. in 1992, even though he later spent six-and-a-half seasons alongside John Stockton in Utah's backcourt. Dan Majerle never averaged as many as 11.0 points in his seven seasons after leaving K.J., immediately dropping from 15.6 with Phoenix in 1995 to 10.6 in Cleveland in 1996. Part of that decline can be explained by Majerle playing fewer minutes on a new team, but he was still just 30 years old and could have played more had his new coaching staff deemed him effective enough. Without K.J., though, that wasn't the case, even though Majerle had joined one of the better point guards of the day in Terrell Brandon (and later Tim Hardaway in Miami). Still, he couldn't come close to duplicating his success alongside K.J. in Phoenix.

As for Tom Chambers, he'd made one All-Star Game in seven seasons prior to joining K.J., but he then made the All-Star team three years in a row as soon as he started running with Johnson. Check out these K.J.-Chambers hook-ups:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/for...c&daysprune=-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_jBW...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN4-b...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBS...elated&search=

And Eddie Johnson received his only NBA honor (1989 Sixth Man of the Year) playing next to K.J.

Let me also quote a recent post of mine on another board to reveal more about the K.J.-Chambers dynamic and how K.J. had made the Sixers' "Barkley haul" (Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) seem quite attractive at the time.

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_...av=ArticleList

Playing with K.J. allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-season scoring average record two years in a row with 25.7 in 1989 and 27.2 in 1990, the latter mark remaining a franchise record. Playing with K.J. also allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-game scoring record with 60 points, just a month after scoring 56.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19900324.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...W19900218.html

Conversely, Shawn Kemp never averaged 20.0 points per game with Payton, a mark that he surely would have reached with K.J. Or look at the three players whom Phoenix dealt to Philadelphia in the Charles Barkley blockbuster of June 1992. On the surface, it seemed as if the Sixers were receiving quite a haul of talent, three starters off a 53-win team (Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) who had shot the following respective field goal percentages during the '92 season: .512, .523, .522. Three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field should have helped the Sixers. However, as Philadelphia soon found out, those players were not nearly as effective once removed from K.J., even though Hornacek was a fine guard either way. Indeed, in Philadelphia in '93, Hornacek, Perry, and Lang shot just .470, .468, and .425 from the field, respectively. Perhaps the Sixers should have listened to Clyde Drexler after Perry scored 27 points in Game Three of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals, with K.J. posting 16 points and 16 assists after going for 35 points (including 18 in a row, 22 in the third quarter, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line) in Game Two and before recording 35 points and 14 assists in Game Four. Here was Drexler's quotation in the Los Angeles Times.

Johnson and Hornacek Put Run, Fun in Suns; [Home Edition] Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1992. pg. 5

Kevin Johnson, who runs the Phoenix offense, had 16 points and 16 assists.

"We ran up and down the court, and I found (Tim) Perry open, and pretty soon it just opened up for everybody," Johnson said

... "I don't think we stopped Kevin (Johnson) because he was able to get the ball to Perry and those other guys. I believe he might as well have scored Perry's 27 points," Drexler said.

K.J. actually made Perry seem like an attractive commodity to Philadelphia.

I'll also quote Hornacek's letter to K.J. in 2001:

I also want to thank you for helping to make my career what it was. I wasn't happy at first ... Cotton made you the point guard without even having to beat me out, but obviously he knew what he was doing! I learned quickly, as did everyone else who has had the privilege of playing along side of you, that my game would benefit from having you at point guard. You are one of few players who can elevate the play of those around you.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnso...av=ArticleList

[Glove_20]

It could go the other way around too. Imagine Nate getting no one and the rest getting stronger.

But the point I was making with the ABA were on his numbers. He wouldn't have led th league in scoring/assists with Erving in the league. He wouldn't have put as good numbers with, better teammates, not way better, but just better teammates. Or would top players come to his team, or will the rest of the league strengthen against him making it tougher...

Most likely, his team would get better (not way better), the rest of the league overall would get better, Tiny's numbers would fall, and his team would still likely miss playoffs since his team and the rest of the league got better.



But anyways, one thing is certain, with ABA at their best in his prime, that definately is an argument against him since the competetion in the league against him wasn't as high.












Quick quote:

put up his biggest stats during some weak NBA years (1972-76, when the ABA was stealing young talent from college and high school)

-Bill Simmons on Tiny


Just saying, its not just me that thinks that

[GMATCallahan]

Actually, I think the ABA would have helped Nate more then it would have hurt him. Imagine some of the players from the ABA being his teammate. Maybe an Artis Gilmore, or David Thompson or somebody.


Peoole credit Larry and Magic with the resurgence of the NBA, but the ABA coming into the NBA was as big of an impact as they were.

I don't know about that last statement. Drug scandals swamped the league in the late seventies (after the NBA-ABA merger of 1976), and the NBA had reached something of a nadir prior to the arrival of Magic and Bird in the fall of 1979.

[L.Kizzle]

I don't know about that last statement. Drug scandals swamped the league in the late seventies (after the NBA-ABA merger of 1976), and the NBA had reached something of a nadir prior to the arrival of Magic and Bird in the fall of 1979.

LOL, I'm talking about talent wise not doping wise. You had Erving/Moses/Gervin who were 3 of the top players before Magic/Larry and after they entered the league.

The league went through some doping during the Magic/Larry years with Micheal Ray and Roy Tarply among others.

[GMATCallahan]

First of all, I think he didn't make it the last 3 years in Cincinnati.

That's correct, and the Royals failed to post a winning record in any of Robertson's final four years in Cincinnati, winning fewer than 40 games three times.

I'm not saying that it was Oscar's fault, just stating the facts.