Discussing the Bulls chances of beating the Heat in a 7 game series

[tmacattack33]

With Rose they had both the first seed in both 2011 and 2012. I don't see a reason for that to change. They didn't have Jimmy Butler in those years either, so adding him makes the team much better.

The Heats cast is only getting older and less effective. Other than LeBron there is no gamechanger on the roster and it will be an uphill battle for LeBron to bring Miami a championship with a Wade and Bosh that become even less effective.

If we look at the top 5 players on either team, 4 of them are Bulls. Heres the rankings.
-LeBron James
-Joakim Noah
-Jimmy Butler
-Taj Gibson
-Derrick Rose

This has some strong potential of being like the Cleveland/Boston series

Those 4 Bulls have higher value than any other player on the Heat. Then they also have guys like Luol Deng, Boozer, Hinrich. This team has a lot of depth and there is no way they'll be able to keep this team together. Guys will be gone when they find themselves unable to afford all of these players.

The only way Miami are the favorites is if Wade/Oden show zero problems regarding injuries. Especially Oden. He is the second most important player after LeBron on the team. If he can give them 20 minutes of quality 7 footer play that will be huge.

Taj Gibson > Wade.

[Trollsmasher]

Damn, that Butler defense overrating is pretty laughable The only reason LeBron's numbers against the Bulls were bad was his shot being off. He got past Butler anytime he wanted to because of the guy's completly pointless overplaying and if anyone stopped him, it was the help defense.

[ripthekik]

He is right though. Lebron never won a ring when Rose was healthy + is playing.

[poido123]

Damn, that Butler defense overrating is pretty laughable The only reason LeBron's numbers against the Bulls were bad was his shot being off. He got past Butler anytime he wanted to because of the guy's completly pointless overplaying and if anyone stopped him, it was the help defense.

At least try to be somewhat objective.

I see you didn't watch the games

[plowking]

If you have some tape, go back and watch the 2012 Bulls v Heat matchup and tell me how much help defense Butler needed when defending Lebron and how many times Lebron passed the ball off because of his defensive pressure.

Then go have a look at the 2011 matchup and tell me that Lebron defended Rose near as good or defended his man in the same manner. Tell me if you notice any differences in defensive style and intensity.

The big difference is Lebron used funneling tactics to trap and cutoff driving lanes with the help of his teammates. Butler had the ability to stay in front of Lebron most of the time and force him to pass the ball off. In fact, Lebron looked so rattled out there, he was very quiet for much of that series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHwMkn6tvnE

Look at every time Lebron drives.
A trap. Funneled into big men. Crowded, surrounded, etc. All he did was funnel and trap every time Lebron went inside.

[plowking]

And Butler's defense got so overrated. Lebron did a far better job stopping Rose than Butler stopping Lebron.

The one player that played Lebron well, straight up 1 on 1 the whole time was Danny Green.

[juju151111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHwMkn6tvnE

Look at every time Lebron drives.
A trap. Funneled into big men. Crowded, surrounded, etc. All he did was funnel and trap every time Lebron went inside.

Most of those were one on ones. Rd are u talking about. Just look at the first 3 plays of the video. He seats his shit, contest post up attempt, and a contested 3 point shot.

[plowking]

Most of those were one on ones. Rd are u talking about. Just look at the first 3 plays of the video. He seats his shit, contest post up attempt, and a contested 3 point shot.

I'm talking about when he drives.
The first two times Lebron is inside, Butler forces him into doubles. lol.

This according to poido is team defense, not 1 on 1. I'm just going by his definition.

The only 2 good examples of 1 on 1 man defense according to poido are 2:02 and 4:55 in the whole video. Because apparently forcing a player into bad spots and shots on the court isn't considered man defense.

[Trollsmasher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHwMkn6tvnE

Look at every time Lebron drives.
A trap. Funneled into big men. Crowded, surrounded, etc. All he did was funnel and trap every time Lebron went inside.

Exactly what I was saying. And even with that help defense, the only reason LeBron's numbers were worse than normal was him missing shots he normally makes.

[juju151111]

I'm talking about when he drives.
The first two times Lebron is inside, Butler forces him into doubles. lol.

This according to poido is team defense, not 1 on 1. I'm just going by his definition.

The only 2 good examples of 1 on 1 man defense according to poido are 2:02 and 4:55 in the whole video. Because apparently forcing a player into bad spots and shots on the court isn't considered man defense.

When he drives it's mostly one on one. Obviously the big will rotate. That's every defense. Most of it was one on one defense. What doubles? I saw one double and that was with Teague on that post up and Teague didn't even jump so he had no effect.

[juju151111]

Exactly what I was saying. And even with that help defense, the only reason LeBron's numbers were worse than normal was him missing shots he normally makes.

He didn't make it because of how hard Butler was playing him. Denying him the ball, not getting normal postioning and contesting his shot. That's how you get players out of rhythm. Which is why he was a good defender.

[poido123]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHwMkn6tvnE

Look at every time Lebron drives.
A trap. Funneled into big men. Crowded, surrounded, etc. All he did was funnel and trap every time Lebron went inside.

I saw Lebron drive by Butler on a few occasions when Lebron got the quick first step on him and Butler lost his step or got up on him to close or overplayed him. But what that video did show, was how often Butler was able to keep in front of Lebron and contest his shots more often than Lebron getting past him.

I saw no strategy of funneling in any of those defensive sequences, I saw Lebron drive to the hole and then the help defense came in once he got close to the basket? That happens in all NBA games

I saw lots of high screens set for Lebron, but Butler was good enough to get around most of them.

What you think is funnelling is not what I am talking about. That is the old traditional defense where a big man is drawn into the play once an offensive player has penetrated the perimeter. Just about every defensive play in the NBA does that when a guard gets by his man.

Im talking about when there is a high screen trap or a Heat teammate coming accross 8 feet from the basket and closing the gate on Rose's drives. That is quite different to a bigman coming to help on the last line of defense.

[plowking]

When he drives it's mostly one on one. Obviously the big will rotate. That's every defense. Most of it was one on one defense. What doubles? I saw one double and that was with Teague on that post up and Teague didn't even jump so he had no effect.

We'll go through them...

2. Beli rotates over on the drive... Noah is hedging the whole time on the post up, and Brewer helps.
1:10 - Noah hedging and helping the whole time, where Butler is forcing him. Not man on man (all according to poido, not my definition).
1:29 - Noah comes across where Butler is forcing him. Even Boozer hedges over. (again not man on man according to the definition I was given in the other thread).
1:38 - Lebron gets to the ring easy and misses an easy layup. Noah again comes over but was late, hence Lebron being able to get the ring easy. No one to help Butler.
2:00 - First play of good man defense according to poido.


Etc, etc...

Butler got way too much credit for overplaying on James, because he could afford to having the best defensive bigs in the league waiting for James in the key.

[plowking]

I saw Lebron drive by Butler on a few occasions when Lebron got the quick first step on him and Butler lost his step or got up on him to close or overplayed him. But what that video did show, was how often Butler was able to keep in front of Lebron and contest his shots more often than Lebron getting past him.

I saw no strategy of funneling in any of those defensive sequences, I saw Lebron drive to the hole and then the help defense came in once he got close to the basket? That happens in all NBA games

I saw lots of high screens set for Lebron, but Butler was good enough to get around most of them.

What you think is funnelling is not what I am talking about. That is the old traditional defense where a big man is drawn into the play once an offensive player has penetrated the perimeter. Just about every defensive play in the NBA does that when a guard gets by his man.

I mean where there is a high screen trap or a Heat teammate coming accross 8 feet from the basket and closing the gate on Rose's drives.

Its actually hilarious you can claim that.

Taj Gibson in most of the plays completely ignores his player and watches Lebron the whole time. At all times there is a 2 man hedge on the side Lebron is on.

Its funny you think this is a better example of great defense compared to Lebron on Rose. Lebron didn't have big guys hedging over for him like Butler did. He worked his ass off to keep Rose on the perimeter.

[poido123]

I'm talking about when he drives.
The first two times Lebron is inside, Butler forces him into doubles. lol.

This according to poido is team defense, not 1 on 1. I'm just going by his definition.

The only 2 good examples of 1 on 1 man defense according to poido are 2:02 and 4:55 in the whole video. Because apparently forcing a player into bad spots and shots on the court isn't considered man defense.

LOL at there only being 2 good instances of good man to man defense in this video.

You watch games with a totally different view of everyone else Plowking.

Butler manned Lebron up and contested at least 75% of all those defensive sequences and that's being generous. Excellent example of how to defend a tough opponent like Lebron.

I'd love for you to post a link of Lebron playing defense on Rose in 2011. Then we can compare the two