#apples2oranges

[Poochymama]

Hate it or love it, KB has a point.

If mike came in the league out of HS and was playing with the most dominant force ever and played in Phil's system,

And

Kobe came in after playing college ball and had great players and a great system (similar to 09/10) and his whole career he played with someone of SP level along with a great supporting cast

It would be different. Nobody is saying kobe would be better or anything. I'm not saying that, simply saying that it would be different.

Let's be real, an 18 yr out of HS would be shaqs #2 option too.
Look at Kobe's numbers on those 3 peats. Compare them to the numbers he put them as a #1 option. Imagine if M was sharing the ball with shaq.


So he has a point. In terms of careers, apples and oranges.

You don't know if playing with shaq made a positive, negative, or neutral impact on Kobe's career/talent and to what extent the same way we don't know what playing in M's situation would have done for Kb

Playing with Shaq for 6 years was a huge, huge, huge positive. To suggest otherwise is extremely disingenuous. Trying to account for differences in career just makes things worse for Kobe, not better.

Kobe was "drafted" to one of the best teams in the league, and spent 13-14 or so years with championship caliber talent, from that he produced 5 rings.

Jordan was drafted to the worst team in the league, and spent 6-7 years or so with championship caliber talent, from that he produced 6 rings.

Huge difference, but it's not in favor of Kobe at all.

[Goldrush25]

However one feels about the Kobe vs MJ discussion, Kobe does have a point here. MJ and Kobe played the majority of their respective careers under vastly different circumstances.

Since when has that stopped anyone from comparisons?

You have Kobe fans, MJ fans, Lebron fans, all they do on this board all day is compare apples to oranges. This board couldn't exist without those comparisons, though they're mostly for entertainment.

[NumberSix]

No 2 players have the same career path. Of the top superstars, the closest career path is probably Shaq/LeBron.

[daj0264]

as kenny smith said shaq allowed one of the best players to go 1v1. If he didnt have shaq he would have been doubled to hell.

[tpols]

I wonder if kobe never played with shaq would he still have that selfish mentality in his prime..

We saw him 07ish-09 when he had a good team in his prime as the man and he played within the system very well not as much hero ball.

The last few years hes been gunning trying to still be the man..with shaq he started gunning when he saw how little credit the second guy gets for winning even if the first guy is the MDE.

Who knows..maybe kobe wouldve evolved into a more team oriented player if he had a pippen or gasol level sidekick his whole career.

[GrapeApe]

This is what I don't really understand. Being compared to the nearly universally agreed upon GOAT should be considered, ya know, a good thing, and a compliment of the highest order. I'm not sure why Kobe and his fans don't realize this.

[AlphaWolf24]

copied from one of my favorite posters ( Unbiased fan) on another site...

and is 100% correct.

It's an interesting question. If we were to match them up by age, the Lakers and Bulls look like this.

Lakers:
1997 - Shaq/Freshmen MJ
1998 - Shaq/Sophmore MJ
1999 - Shaq/Junior MJ
2000 - Shaq/ 85' MJ
2001 - Shaq/ 86' MJ
2002 - Shaq/ 87' MJ
2003 - Shaq/ 88' MJ
2004 - Shaq/ 89' MJ/ Malone/ GP

Now assuming Shaq & MJ got along...

2005 - Shaq/ 90' MJ
2006 - Shaq/ 91' MJ
2007 - Shaq/ 92' MJ
2008 - Shaq/ 93' MJ
2009 - Shaq/ 94' MJ
2010 - Shaq/ 95' MJ

Bulls:
1985 - 00' Kobe
1986 - 01' Kobe
1987 - 02' Kobe
1988 - 03' Kobe
1989 - 04' Kobe/ Pip
1990 - 05' Kobe/ Pip
1991 - 06' Kobe/ Pip
1992 - 07' Kobe/ Pip
1993 - 08' Kobe/ Pip
1994 - 09' Kobe/ Pip
1995 - 10' Kobe/ Pip
1996 - 11' Kobe/ Pip
1997 - 12' Kobe/ Pip
1998 - 13' Kobe/ Pip

I think both players would have still been very successful in both scenarios and won 5+ titles each. But like many pointed out, MJ would have less trophies because both he 7 Shaq would be penalized for playing with each other. And in the Finals, the Lakers went through Shaq due to the East being weaker inside. In Western conference series, I think MJ would shine the most. Kobe & Pippen mesh very well, with 2 extra years(94/95), it would be interesting. I definitely see Kobe increasing his MVP total.

Does this change MJ being the GOAT, no. But it does show how perceptions can change, which is what i think Kobe was talking about. Comparing MJ to Kobe's career path is apples & oranges. Just like Magic's to Lebron's would be.

- Prime Shaq is not going to take a back seat to a 20 year old unknown Michael Jordan....

- and Jordan would not be shooting 25 times per game...winning scoring titles etc...

- Phsychotic competitive MJ would not let Shaq show up outta shape without significant hazing....

[tpols]

copied from one of my favorite posters ( Unbiased fan) on another site...

and is 100% correct.



- Prime Shaq is not going to take a back seat to a 20 year old unknown Michael Jordan....

- and Jordan would not be shooting 25 times per game...winning scoring titles etc...

- Phsychotic competitive MJ would not let Shaq show up outta shape without significant hazing....

Not only that, but imagine if MJ got hurt in a few of those finals series after beasting in the west.. And then Shaq went around flaunting his FMVP in front of MJ. lol, I don't think MJ would respond well to that. Given Shaqs egotistical selfish, bullying attitude MJ might turn on him too and start gunning.

[AlphaWolf24]

Not only that, but imagine if MJ got hurt in a few of those finals series after beasting in the west.. And then Shaq went around flaunting his FMVP in front of MJ. lol, I don't think MJ would respond well to that. Given Shaqs egotistical selfish, bullying attitude MJ might turn on him too and start gunning.

again, I'll say it...

it wasn't until Jordan's Bull's started winning that anyone cared about Finals MVP's...( due to Jordan jockers trying to overplay MJ's first few Titles.....after Losing the first half of his career)

the great 80's teams/players didn't invest in FMVP's...no one said Cedrick Maxwell carried Larry bird....or Kareem carried Magic

- But Jordan wins a few titles and all of a sudden...." hey MJ is so much better because he won FMVP's....Magic didn't win FMVP every time...nor did Bird"



- funny part is.....those 3 players just care about winning.....when comparing " Star" players ( not role players)


" 5 beats 1 " - MJ

[SpecialQue]

This is an instance where Kobe's competitive streak works against him. Because of his mentality, he modeled his game on someone who is widely considered the greatest player of all time. But because of his competitiveness, he not only wanted to play as well as Jordan, but wanted to surpass him. Even if he's older and wiser now, this is a situation that he created for himself, since no one else really gets as many Jordan comparisons as Kobe does. Now that his basketball career is nearing its end, I'm sure he sees the downside to giving himself a nearly impossible goal, even though he got 5 rings from this obsession.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't agree with that post, I'm pretty sure '85 Jordan - '89 Jordan paired up with '97 - 2004 Shaq wins multiple rings. Jordan coming into the league was flat out much better player, and made much more impact than Kobe did from '97 - 2000, and Shaq was peaking.

Kobe's career situation is very confusing, though. Which makes ranking him very difficult. He played an awesome second fiddle to Shaq winning three rings, but his production in 2001 almost makes him an equal to Shaquille O'Neal. One could make the argument he was not a sidekick that season.

His most productive or eye popping statistical years individually (2003 excluded) came in his absolute PEAK as a player on bad teams 27 - 30 years old on the 2006, 2007, and 2008 Lakers.

Jordan at his absolute peak '90, '91, '92 and '93 of the same ages was formatting his game to championship contenders, while trying to be a selfless team leader and utility player. Not going on scoring binges, when he was obviously at his absolute best as a player.

Kobe was the best from a leader perspective in 2008 and 2009. He finally got it. He finally seemed mature. He actually finally struck a balance in his game (2008 at least) ... He involved teammates, was trusting, gregarious, and didn't rule over them with an iron fist.

It seems since LeBron won MVP in 2009, thereafter Kobe relentlessly gunned to try and prove he was still an MVP caliber player. Probably because he knew from a legacy perspective, he needed more MVP trophies.

This is where Kobe's need to prove people wrong takes a turn for the worse, because he focuses on the trees and not the forrest. Even more noticeable the past two seasons when his burden should be easing with advanced age and regressing abilities, he should be more of a zen like cerebral team leader by delegating to teammates the way MJ did in '97 and '98 at comparable ages. It seems like he regressed mentally as a leader at times.

This is an instance where Kobe's competitive streak works against him. Because of his mentality, he modeled his game on someone who is widely considered the greatest player of all time. But because of his competitiveness, he not only wanted to play as well as Jordan, but wanted to surpass him. Even if he's older and wiser now, this is a situation that he created for himself, since no one else really gets as many Jordan comparisons as Kobe does. Now that his basketball career is nearing its end, I'm sure he sees the downside to giving himself a nearly impossible goal, even though he got 5 rings from this obsession.

Precisely, by using MJ as the standard of what he was trying to achieve, it became both a blessing and curse. He gets the comparisons to MJ, but he can never truly surpass him because he always comes off as a clone. It pushed him to greatness, but by trying to be so forcibly like MJ, he capped his ultimate potential. Where as say LeBron used MJ as inspiration (as we all did) ... but he ultimately plays his own game.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Phil completely destroyed Kobe in his book. Lol!!! "Kobe forces the action. When his shot isn't falling he will pound away relentlessly."

Sorry Kobe, Phil's criticisms had NOTHING to do w/ Shaq.

[LikeABosh]

But wait, Kobe stans like to gloat about his 5 rings compared to Lebron's 1. Didn't they have #differentcareerpaths considering Kobe was drafted into Los Angeles with Shaq while Lebron was in shithole Cleveland for 7 years? #applesandoranges

[Poochymama]

Jordan with Kobe's career path would be pretty unfair. Jordan/Shaq from 97-04' would have torn up the league in a way that hasn't been seen since the 60's Celtics.

Speaking in terms of the most likely outcome, bolded are most likely championship years.

Lakers:
1997 - Shaq/85 MJ Shaq best player
1998 - Shaq/86' MJ
1999 - Shaq/87' MJ Shaq best player
2000 - Shaq/ 88' MJ Shaq best player
2001 - Shaq/ 89' MJ Jordan best player
2002 - Shaq/ 90' MJ Jordan best player
2003 - Shaq/ 91' MJ Jordan best player
2004 - Shaq/ 92' MJ/ Malone/ GP Jordan best player
2005 - 93' MJ - Ridiculous stats
2006 - DNP
2007 - DNP
2008 - 96' Jordan/ Gasol Jordan best player
2009 - 97' Jordan/ Gasol Jordan best player
2010 - 98' Jordan/ Gasol Jordan best player

10 Championships That's just insane, though a lot of that timing with when Jordan retired and Kobe's team's sucking is pure luck.

Bulls:
1985 - 97' Kobe
1986 - 98' Kobe
1987 - 99' Kobe
1988 - 00' Kobe
1989 - 01' Kobe/ Pip
1990 - 02' Kobe/ Pip
1991 - 03' Kobe/ Pip Kobe best player
1992 - 04' Kobe/ Pip
1993 - 05' Kobe/ Pip
1994 - 06' Kobe/ Pip/ Grant Kobe best player
1995 - 07' Kobe/ Pip Kobe best player
1996 - 08' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman
1997 - 09' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman
1998 - 10' Kobe/ Pip/ Rodman
1999 - 11' Kobe
2000 - 12' Kobe
2001 - 13' Kobe

Kobe would have still had major success with those Bulls teams, in all likelihood we're looking at 5 championships with 5 FMVP, better than what he has now. Like with Jordan, a lot of it's timing, but still. This really puts Kobe's longevity in perspective with Jordan's. Even without an early retirement, he still outlasts him by 3 years and counting.

[AlphaWolf24]

I don't agree with that post, I'm pretty sure '85 Jordan - '89 Jordan paired up with '97 - 2004 Shaq wins multiple rings. Jordan coming into the league was flat out much better player, and made much more impact than Kobe did from '97 - 2000, and Shaq was peaking.

Kobe's career situation is very confusing, though. Which makes ranking him very difficult. He played an awesome second fiddle to Shaq winning three rings, but his production in 2001 almost makes him an equal to Shaquille O'Neal. One could make the argument he was not a sidekick that season.

His most productive or eye popping statistical years individually (2003 excluded) came in his absolute PEAK as a player on bad teams 27 - 30 years old on the 2006, 2007, and 2008 Lakers.

Jordan at his absolute peak '90, '91, '92 and '93 of the same ages was formatting his game to championship contenders, while trying to be a selfless team leader and utility player. Not going on scoring binges, when he was obviously at his absolute best as a player.

Kobe was the best from a leader perspective in 2008 and 2009. He finally got it. He finally seemed mature. He actually finally struck a balance in his game (2008 at least) ... He involved teammates, was trusting, gregarious, and didn't rule over them with an iron fist.

It seems since LeBron won MVP in 2009, thereafter Kobe relentlessly gunned to try and prove he was still an MVP caliber player. Probably because he knew from a legacy perspective, he needed more MVP trophies.

This is where Kobe's need to prove people wrong takes a turn for the worse, because he focuses on the trees and not the forrest. Even more noticeable the past two seasons when his burden should be easing with advanced age and regressing abilities, he should be more of a zen like cerebral team leader by delegating to teammates the way MJ did in '97 and '98 at comparable ages. It seems like he regressed mentally as a leader at times.

- 85' MJ was already 21 - 22 years old....

Kobe at 21 years old was also winning titles....

again this about MJ coming straight into the league as a unknown rookie playing with Prime Shaq...

MJ's numbers take a huge hit and Shaq is easily taking the majority of the shots.



your whole post makes no sense when looking at the context of what Kobe was talking about.....

- even a 18 year old Jordan was no where near Kobe's abilty ( according to MJ himeself)....and no way 18 year old MJ with Shaq win any titles...

- it would have took MJ at least 3- 4 seasons to develop his game.....heck it took MJ 5 seasons to develop a reliable midrange game. ( something he could fall back on when teams took away his slashing game)