So one game and Kobe is a huge minus?

[NBASTATMAN]

Just for the record. Duncan had horrific 4th quarters against Shaq in their '01, '02, '03, and '04 series H2H's. I believe fatal9 posted that he shot about 33% overall in them. In any case, Jackson would finally put Shaq on Duncan in the 4th quarters, and he would promptly fold his tent against him. Even in their game five win in '03, Duncan was shaking like a leaf as LA nearly came all the way back from 25 point deficit.

Secondly, Kobe murdered "the Kobe-killer" Bruce Bowen in '08. In fact, he was going right around Bowen and challenging Duncan at the rim. Duncan couldn't stop him, either.

Wasn't BRUCE BOWEN LIKE 37 YEARS OLD...

Duncan hadnt yet started his HGH at that point and looked like a old man as well...

Great Move by COACH SCOTT last night.. Kobe is a incredible talent but he is just killing THE LAKERS WITH HIS PLAY..

[jstern]

Chamberlain was a whole lot more than that, dude. He played at the very highest level that I ever saw. Granted Lazer is into stats and all that.

but #13 was the real deal top to bottom, always played to win and definitely definitely played team ball. definitely.

dont go there bro

With the little that I know of Wilt, I have to agree that he did make a huge effort of playing team ball. I think he even led the league in assists one time.

[LAZERUSS]

No wonder Lazerrus liked Wilt so much. He loves players that were carried to championships lmao. 18ppg finals average

Yep...18 ppg. And he only averaged 22 ppg in his playoff career.

What a choker.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=362392

The Wilt-bashers always use the "50-22-18" argument (which, BTW, would round to 50-23-19) as some kind of example of Chamberlain's "decline" in his post-season play.

How about his 66-67 post-season, in which he averaged 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, and 9.0 apg, then? Obviously he must REALLY have been a flop that year, right? At that point in his NBA career, his regular season averages were 37.6 ppg, 24.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .522 FG%. Of course, he was always a great defensive center, and most likely the greatest shot-blocker of his generation (sorry Russell,, but in the known research we have, Wilt was easily the GOAT.)

So, "Mr. 50-22-18", which only refers to his post-season scoring, and ignores everything else he did...could "only" put up a 22 ppg post-season run, and an even worse 18 ppg Finals, in arguably, his peak season.

Oh wait..he didn't average 50 ppg in 66-67. In fact, he "only" averaged 24.1 ppg. So, his "decline" was really from 24 down to 22 in the post-season, and down to 18 in the Finals.

Now, how did he fare against the same teams in the post-season, that he faced in his regular season? Against the Royals, his regular season averages were 28.6 ppg, 23.7 rpg, 9.4 apg, and on a .695 FG%. Against Russell's Celtics, his regular season averages were 20.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 6.6 apg, and a .549 FG%. Now, in his nineregular season H2H's with the Warriors, he faced Nate Thurmond in six of them. He actually fared worse in the games that Nate missed, so here were his cumulative averages... 20.7 ppg, 25.9 rpg, 8.8 apg, and on a .562 FG%. In his six H2H's with Thurmond, he averaged 20.8 ppg, 25.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, and on a .633 FG% (yes, a .633 FG% against THURMOND.)

BTW, here were his regular season H2H's with Russell and Thurmond:

Russell: 12.2 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, .425 FG%
Wilt: 20.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 6.6 apg, .549 FG%

Thurmond: 13.2 ppg, 23.8 rpg, .320 FG%
Wilt: 20.8 ppg, 25.0 rpg, 8.5 apg, and on a .633 FG%


Ok, round-by-round in the playoffs:

For those that claim that Wilt wasn't even Philly's scoring leader in the post-season (he finished 2nd at 21.7 ppg behind Hal Greer's 27.7 ppg), how about the Sixers very first playoff game? Chamberlain scored what would be a team playoff high in that game, with 41 points, on 19-30 shooting. In his very next game, he hung 37 points, on 16-24 shooting. After that, his shot attempts dropped considerably. Why? Was it because he couldn't score? Well, in his third playoff game, he could only score 16 points, on 8-13 shooting, BUT in addition to pulling down 30 rebounds, he also handed out...get this... 19 assists! Furthermore, while we don't have his exact block totals, there were accounts of as high as 20 blocked shots. And in the series finale (the first round was only a best-of-five back then), he put up an "ordinary" 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds, and 9 assists, in a blowout win.

First round numbers:

28.0 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and on a .617 FG%. The "bashers" would tell you that he did decline, dropping from 28.6 ppg and on a .695 FG% in his regular season H2H's, all the way down to a 28.0 ppg on a .617 FG% (oh, and as he nearly always did, he ELEVATED his rebounding), from 23.7 ppg to 26.5 rpg, as well as raising his apg from 9.4 apg to 11.0 apg.

And, for those that did not catch that...yes, he AVERAGED a TRIPLE DOUBLE. In fact it was also a double-double in scoring and rebounding, 28-27, and in fact, a near DOUBLE-TRIPLE-DOUBLE!


In the 66-67 EDF's, the "declining" Wilt then carried his 68-13 Sixers to a 4-1 series blowout over the eight-time defending 60-21 Celtics. In fact, they nearly swept the Celtics, narrowly losing game four in Boston by a 121-117 margin (and Wilt was hobbled with an assortment of nagging injuries in that game, BTW.) Furthermore, in the clinching game five win, the Celtics had jumped out to a 17 point first quarter lead, before the Sixers mounted a comeback. By mid-way thru the 4th period, the Sixers had blown the game wide-open, and were leading by a 131-104 margin, en route to a 140-116 win.

As usual, Chamberlain just demolished Russell. However, for the first time in his career H2H's with Russell,he had an equal supporting cast...that was healthy, and that played to their normal capabilities in the playoffs.

In game one, Russell played his best game of the series. He scored 20 points, on 7-14 shooting, but could only snare 15 rebounds. Meanwhile, Chamberlain hung a KNOWN quad-double on Russell, with a 24 point game, on 9-13 shooting, 32 rebounds, 13 asisists, and 12 blocks. BTW, not only did Chamberlain crush Russell on the glass, his 32 rebounds came in a game with a total of 128. Oh, and Wilt not only blocked 12 shots, he out-blocked Russell by a 12-1 margin.

In game two, Chamberlain easily outplayed Russell, outscoring him by a 15-14 margin; outshooting him by a 5-11 to 5-14 margin; outrebounding him by a 29-24 margin; he equalled Russell in assists at 5; and he outblocked him by a 5-3 margin.

The Sixers moved out to an insurmountable 3-0 series lead in game three. Russell had a huge rebounding game, with 29. HOWEVER, Chamberlain STILL slaughtered him on the glass, with a playoff record 41 rebounds. BTW, those 41 rebounds came in a game in which there were a total of 134 (or 30% of the available rebounds.) Both Wilt and Russell handed out nine assists, but Wilt outscored Russell, 20-10, while outshooting him by an 8-14 to 3-13 margin.

Again, in game four, Chamberlain's knees were bothering him, and his mobility was really hindered. This was Russell's last hurrah. He was still easily outplayed by Chamberlain, but he did manage to outrebound Wilt for the only time in the series, 28-22. Wilt outscored him, 20-9; outshot him, 8-18 to 2-7, and outassisted him, 10-5.

I already provided the score in the clinching game five blowout win, but Wilt's completely overwhelmed a helpless Russell in the game. In the first half, the game was still close, and by half-time, Chamberlain had hung 22 points on Russell. So, it was pretty clear, that had he needed to score, he was well on his way to yet another 40 point pasting of Russell. However, he didn't need to. His teammates finally outplayed Russell's, and the rout was on. Hal Greer led Philly in scoring, with 32 points, but on 12-28 shooting. Chamberlain finished with 29 points, but on 10-16 from the field. Overall, Wilt crushed Russell in every facet of the game. He outscored Russell, 29-4; out-shot Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisted Russell, 13-7; and outrebounded Russell by a staggering 36-21 margin (in a game with 134 available rebounds.) We don't have Russell's blcoked shots, but Wilt added 7 of those.

BTW, the Russell-supporters have never been able to answer this question:

Just the season before, Wilt and his Sixers were down in the EDF series to Boston by a 3-1 margin. So, with his back to the wall, Chamberlain erupted for a 46 point game, on 19-34 shooting, and with 34 rebounds...in a close loss.

Ok, now in the '67 EDF's, it was Russell who was faced with that exact same scenario. His team was also down 3-1, and facing elimination in game five. Did Russell explode for a 46-34 game against Wilt? Hell no, he meekly led his team to slaughter with a meager 4 point, 2-5 shooting, 21 rebound game (while Wilt was just murdering him.)

How come? If Russell truly "owned" Wilt, as the "bashers" will tell you (the famous "11-2" crap), what happened in '67? BTW, Chamberlain essentially outplayed Russell by those margins in nearly all of their H2H series.

For the series:

Russell: 10.2 ppg, 23.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, and on a .358 FG%.
Wilt: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, and on a .556 FG%.

And again, a TRIPLE-DOUBLE series. As a sidenote, in their known blocks, Wilt held a 29-8 margin.


In the Finals, Wilt's Sixers stumbled some, but still won by a convincing 4-2 margin. And, at their best in the series, they obliterated the Warriors in game two, 126-95.

Keep in mind that this was also a PEAK Thurmond. Nate would finish second to Wilt in the MVP balloting, and for the season against the NBA, he averaged 18.7 ppg, 20.5 rpg, and shot .437 from the field.

And yet Chamberlain just mopped the floor with Nate in the Finals. True, his scoring declined a little, but the domination was evident in the entire series. Wilt outscored Nate in five of the six H2H's; outrebounded Nate in five of the six H2H's; outassisted Nate in five of the six H2H's; and outshot Thurmond from the field in all six. We don't have much block info, but Wilt had a known 10 blocked shots in game two, and an estimated 15 in game four. BTW, Wilt's game two was yet a another QUAD DOUBLE (10-38-10-10.)

And again, when it mattered most, it was WILT who was scoring. In the clinching game six win, Greer could only score 15 points, on 5-16 shooting. Meanwhile, Chamberlain oustcored Nate, 24-12, while outshooting Thurmond from the field by an 8-13 to 4-13 margin.

Overall:

Nate: 14.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 3.3 apg, and on...get this... a .343 FG%.
Wilt: 17.5 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, and on a .560 FG%.


So, here was an example of a PEAK Chamberlain, who could "only" put up a post-season of 22 ppg, and a Finals of 18 ppg. Way down from his career high of 50 ppg. Yep...a great example of the "50-22-18" argument used against Wilt. THAT was Wilt "the choker."

[Budadiiii]

Kobe still has intimidation factor. I am still more scared when OKC plays Kobe than when they play LeBron.

I think many players would agree. Wiggins did say it was much harder to play against Kobe.

LeBron is kindof a weak competitor. No one is really intimidated by LeBron.

[ImKobe]

I'll be the first to admit that more often than none, Kobe has hurt his team in terms of winning basketball games this season, but people should chill with all the hate for these reasons:

1) They are going to miss the Playoffs whether he plays or not
2) He's doing them a service with losing winnable games due to playing into shape or trying to be like his old self despite not having the legs, he's helping them get that top 5 pick. More losses = higher chance they get to keep their pick, maybe they luck out in lotto like Cavs last year?
3) Dude's done so much in his career, a bad season at the tail end of his career isn't going to change his all-time ranking nor what he's accomplished in the past (see: Wiz MJ, Shaq post Miami, Raptors Hakeem)..


So yeah, his games this season for the most part are forgettable, but we should appreciate him still putting in that work at his age and with his injuries. He's still going to give us some memorable games (like the Raptors triple double, that clutch game on the road against the Hawks).
I'm willing to take the good with the bad and hope the Lakers put together a competitive roster next season.

[LAZERUSS]

With the little that I know of Wilt, I have to agree that he did make a huge effort of playing team ball. I think he even led the league in assists one time.

No other "GOAT" was ever asked to change his game more often in his career, than Chamberlain.

Can you imagine a coach going to a high-scoring MJ and asking him to lead the league in assists? Or asking a prime KAJ to cut back his scoring, and become a more "balanced" player? Or asking a Shaq near the end of his career to concentrate on rebounding, defense, and starting the fast-break with outlet passes?

Even Wilt admitted some time after he retired, that he probably made a mistake on listening to at least some of his coach's. Clearly, his accepting Van Breda Kolf's "plan" cost him, and his team a ring in '69.

[LAZERUSS]

Wasn't BRUCE BOWEN LIKE 37 YEARS OLD...

Duncan hadnt yet started his HGH at that point and looked like a old man as well...

Great Move by COACH SCOTT last night.. Kobe is a incredible talent but he is just killing THE LAKERS WITH HIS PLAY..

Bowen was voted First Team All-Defense for a 5th year in a row.

BTW, anyone that watched that series could see that the entire Spurs defensive game plan was concentrated on stopping Kobe. And he still destroyed them.

[Mr Feeny]

Bowen was voted First Team All-Defense for a 5th year in a row.

BTW, anyone that watched that series could see that the entire Spurs defensive game plan was concentrated on stopping Kobe. And he still destroyed them.

So he was 37? Ok then

[LAZERUSS]

So he was 37? Ok then

Nope... 36


And still the best defensive "non-center" in the league.

[ImKobe]

Bowen was voted First Team All-Defense for a 5th year in a row.

BTW, anyone that watched that series could see that the entire Spurs defensive game plan was concentrated on stopping Kobe. And he still destroyed them.

Kobe torched EVERYONE in that series, literally no one on that Spurs roster could slow him down. They used Manu & Bowen on him, and he would just blow by both of them with regularity and finish over Duncan like it's nothing

Just look at his Game 5 to clinch the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GpQBkY_veQ

They played him tight and he made it look so easy, he'd drive to the paint and have 2-3 guys try to contest his shot but he was just way too athletic for them. Leaving only Bowen on him in that series was like giving up an automatic 2 points. Kobe was on another level in that series. Kobe had what, 12 points in the 4th quarter of that game and 26 in the 2nd half?

[Mr Feeny]

Nope... 36


And still the best defensive "non-center" in the league.

In other words, over 35 and past his prime? Ok then

Btw you misspelt "LeBron James" because he was arguably the best defensive perimeter player in basketball despite what the all D first team says.

Later, Mr 18 ppg in finals

[Mr Feeny]

Kobe torched EVERYONE in that series, literally no one on that Spurs roster could slow him down. They used Manu & Bowen on him, and he would just blow by both of them with regularity and finish over Duncan like it's nothing

Just look at his Game 5 to clinch the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GpQBkY_veQ

They played him tight and he made it look so easy, he'd drive to the paint and have 2-3 guys try to contest his shot but he was just way too athletic for them. Leaving only Bowen on him in that series was like giving up an automatic 2 points. Kobe was on another level in that series. Kobe had what, 12 points in the 4th quarter of that game?

Just a shame that predictably and inevitably capitulated when it really mattered in the NBA finals AGAIN. What was it, 40%fg?

[LAZERUSS]

Kobe torched EVERYONE in that series, literally no one on that Spurs roster could slow him down. They used Manu & Bowen on him, and he would just blow by both of them with regularity and finish over Duncan like it's nothing

Just look at his Game 5 to clinch the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GpQBkY_veQ

They played him tight and he made it look so easy, he'd drive to the paint and have 2-3 guys try to contest his shot but he was just way too athletic for them. Leaving only Bowen on him in that series was like giving up an automatic 2 points. Kobe was on another level in that series. Kobe had what, 12 points in the 4th quarter of that game and 26 in the 2nd half?

He would go around 2-3 defenders, and then dunk on Duncan.

The Spurs had no answer.

[LAZERUSS]

Just a shame that predictably and inevitably capitulated when it really mattered in the NBA finals AGAIN. What was it, 40%fg?

He was never a great Finals performer, but his Lakers wouldn't have ever gotten there without him.

[Mr Feeny]

He would go around 2-3 defenders, and then dunk on Duncan.

The Spurs had no answer.

Kobe had no answer for Pierce in the next round
Embarassed on his home floor in a 24 point lead capitulation - WORST ever in the history of the finals
And a 36 point blowout - Worst ever in a championship clinching game in the history of the league.

Mr 37%fg