ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #9 - John Stockton vs. Walt

[G.O.A.T]

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Make your arguments here for the next 48 hours on rather John Stockton or Walt Frazier should advance and continue to move higher on the list. Put the players name you are voting for in BOLD so I don't miss it when I tally. The loser of this poll will be ranked #10 in our project.

Only members listed on the project roster will have their votes counted. Anyone may add their opinion and or argument as long as it's constructive. Our roster is now finalized. If you like the project and think you can make it better please add your opinion. If you;d like to join in the forwards, centers or all-time top 67 project, please let me know via PM. The Final Roster is listed below....

The Roster

L.Kizzle
ThaSwagg3r
Rose
WillC
G.O.A.T
1987 Lakers
neyca
Toizumi
Shaqattack3234
Magnax1
RobertdeMeijer
iamgine
nycelt84
KGMN
SteveNashMVPcro

Crossover (added after initial vote)
bizil (added after initial vote)
Boston C's (added at #20)
Gotterdammerung (added at #17)
SuperPippen (added at #14)
Big164 (added at #13)
PTB Fan (added at #13)
Droid101 (added at #11)
D.J. (added at #11)
Miller for 3 (added at #10)
Odinn (added at #9)
OmniStrife (added at #9)
HylianNightmare (added at #9)
Pushxx (added at #9)
MasterDurant24 (added at #9)
Clippersfan86 (added at #9)

ThaRegul8r (contributor)
NugzHeat3 (contributor)
Psileas (contributor)
Kblaze8855 (contributor)
alexandreben (contributor)
EricForman (contributor)

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19 seasons
11x all-NBA
11x all-star
5x all-defensive
9x Assists Leader
2x Steals Leader
1993 ASG MVP
1st All-time in Assists
1st All-time in Steals
Played 82 games in 16 of 18 possible seasons

Votes (11)
Clippersfan86
magnax1
Odinn
iamgine
nycelt84
Big 164
Droid101
WillC
RobertdeMeijer
SuperPippen
Boston C's



13 seasons
6x all-NBA
7x all-star
6x all-defensive
2x NBA Champion (1970 & 1973)
1975 ASG MVP
Averaged 18-8-10 in 1970 Finals; had 39 points and 9 assists in game seven
Averaged 22-7-7 in the playoffs from 1969-1974 while Knicks were title contenders


Votes (12)
ThaSwagg3r
Shaqattack3234
1987_Lakers
D.J.
bizil
Gotterdammerung
SteveNashMVPcro
MasterDurant24
Miller for 3
G.O.A.T
L. Kizzle
ThaRegula8r

[Clippersfan86]

Definitely Stockton. I'm not going to pretend I saw Walt play (none of us have probably) but based on limited footage, stats, achievements all favor Stockton (besides his lack of rings of course). My vote counts this round right G.O.A.T?

[G.O.A.T]

Just read the damn intro post. Your named is listed home slice.

[magnax1]

Stockton I'll explain more later, but I'm kind of multitasking right now. All I have to really say is that when people talk about Walt, they always seem to only point out his best games, which were great, but never really point out what his average game was like. Which were never terribly fantastic to me. I mean, what is he really? Just a better version of Payton (not skill set, but impact wise) who I wouldn't consider terribly close to Stockton.
Walt probably won't get his full credit in this thread because of the amount of people who watched him, but I'll still take Stockton.

[Clippersfan86]

Just read the damn intro post. Your named is listed home slice.

K cool. I saw it... but was more or less verifying because I thought I'd be in last round and didn't get in.

[Miller for 3]

I will vote tommorrow but I suspect this will be another Stockton blow out

[L.Kizzle]

This is actually a good match-up.

I think the only thing that Stockton has on Clyde is passing. Clyde was probably even a better shooter. Clyde was the better scorer and defender.

As a pure point guard, Stockton was better, but as a player (over even just a guard) you gotta go with Frazier. So that's really what it boils down to, are we picking the better guard or the better point guard (totally different?)

There personnel accolades are about even (All-Stars and All-NBA's give or take a few more for Stockton.) Walt has 2 titles and Stockton had two records.

[Big164]

Most of us werent even born when Walt played, but I bet we could name more players from his Knicks squad than Stocktons Jazz. Earl the pearl, Phil Jackson, Jerry Lucas, Willis reed.

This is definitely one Im going to wait on, dont wanna make the same mistake I did with Kidd/Nash.

[ThaSwagg3r]

Walt "Clyde" Frazier gets my vote.

Walt Frazier was the most underrated PG to ever play IMO. I have Walt over Stockton for the same reason why I have Isiah over Stockton. The two championship rings and because of his ability to close out a game. Walt was a flat out better scorer than Stockton was. Walt has had numerous 20+ ppg seasons while Stockton has had none. No Walt may not have averaged as many apg as Stockton did either and he may not have been as good of a passer. However, the advantage that Frazier has on scoring is bigger IMO especially the ability to close out a game. Frazier also has the edge defensively, Frazier also gets left out as being one of the greatest defenders of all-time frequently. I would argue that Frazier was arguably the best defensive PG to ever play the game, yes above Payton and certainly as hell above both Stockton and Kidd.


It wouldn't surprise me if Stockton wins due to longevity......but he really shouldn't. Stockton gets really overrated in that aspect and he gets really overrated for being this "pure PG." This "pure PG" talk is overrated in my opinion. How many "pure pass-first PGs" have actually won a championship?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Walt Frazier

I obviously haven't seen as much of Walt as I have of Stockton, but I do know that he was a good offensive guard and considered one of the best defensive guards ever.

I'm not sure I'd rank either this highly(partially due to the fact that I'm always less sure of my opinions on players before my time such as Walt), but given what he accomplished such as the 2 rings, his big game 7 performance in the 1970 finals and the fact that he probably should have been the 1970 finals MVP, I have less of a problem with Walt being ranked this high than Stockton.

[SuperPippen]

I'll contribute to the discussion and make my vote tomorrow, but I think this will be a pretty tough decision, if only for Frazier's bad-ass muttonchops.

Those chops have got to give him at least 1,000,000,000 intangible points.

[1987_Lakers]

This is Walt Frazier all the way. Fraizer in his prime was considered a top 3-5 player in the league & he was winning championships as the main man. Stockton was never on the level Frazier was.

I actually see Frazier as one of the most underrated PGs & Stockton as one of the most overrated.

[L.Kizzle]

Walt "Clyde" Frazier gets my vote.

Walt Frazier was the most underrated PG to ever play IMO. I have Walt over Stockton for the same reason why I have Isiah over Stockton. The two championship rings and because of his ability to close out a game. Walt was a flat out better scorer than Stockton was. Walt has had numerous 20+ ppg seasons while Stockton has had none. No Walt may not have averaged as many apg as Stockton did either and he may not have been as good of a passer. However, the advantage that Frazier has on scoring is bigger IMO especially the ability to close out a game. Frazier also has the edge defensively, Frazier also gets left out as being one of the greatest defenders of all-time frequently. I would argue that Frazier was arguably the best defensive PG to ever play the game, yes above Payton and certainly as hell above both Stockton and Kidd.


It wouldn't surprise me if Stockton wins due to longevity......but he really shouldn't. Stockton gets really overrated in that aspect and he gets really overrated for being this "pure PG." This "pure PG" talk is overrated in my opinion. How many "pure pass-first PGs" have actually won a championship?

You could insert Clyde's name with Payton, almost identical. And GP is what four spots back? But I guess the difference is those two titles Clyde has at his peak/prime.

I think the reason Clyde didn't average a lot of assist cause he was on of the most unselfish teams ever. Just watching the few games of his I've seen and the highlights, he could get to the basket and/or get a shot anytime he wanted. He could have averaged way more than the 21 and 6 he got at his peak. His teams were just so unselfish.

Also, dude was just smooth as hell (on and off the court.) Of course, he got his style was playground legend Pee Wee Kirkland (and possibly some moves too.)

[Rekindled]

you are kidding right? i am a knicks fan, even i dont think Clyde is better than Stock. stockton is a top3 pg ever.

[Pointguard]

Frazier one of a very few franchise players in the 70's. And the lead part of one of the best teams ever.