Ranking the top 100 players in NBA history

[Kblaze8855]

KJ got there because two people wouldnt stop overrating the hell out of him every vote from like...the 20s on. Two points in the 90s were often ranked over him in his prime....but people were talking him up as top 30 because of numbers on a 119ppg team that ran all day with like 4 all stars. When the numbers were not even special for the 80s and early 90s west.

[WillC]

KJ got there because two people wouldnt stop overrating the hell out of him every vote from like...the 20s on. Two points in the 90s were often ranked over him in his prime....but people were talking him up as top 30 because of numbers on a 119ppg team that ran all day with like 4 all stars. When the numbers were not even special for the 80s and early 90s west.

That's the problem with doing message board votes. There will always be homers who warp the results.

[Fatal9]

That's the problem with doing message board votes. There will always be homers who warp the results.

These results are even worse.

Bob Cousy 5 spots ahead of David Robinson? Can anyone really justify that? Stockton above D-Rob when he wasn't even thought to be close to as good as him in the same era? Some things are arguable but that's just...wrong. Kobe/West/Oscar over Hakeem?

I mean SLAM's top 500 ranking was used as one of the contributing lists...which literally is the worst of these lists I've ever seen.

http://www.interbasket.net/news/7683...all-time-slam/

[GP_20]

That's the problem with doing message board votes. There will always be homers who warp the results.

Cases were made for KJ, and if those cases were good enough to get people to change their mind then they must have been good cases. It's not like KJ is universally overrated. He is actually universally underrated, and when people make cases to rating him properly he lands in at least in the Top 50.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I think Hakeem should be ahead of Big O. So I think Oscar is a little high. But I agree that Payton is low and Dirk a might high. Other than that this is a decent list.

[GP_20]

KJ got there because two people wouldnt stop overrating the hell out of him every vote from like...the 20s on. Two points in the 90s were often ranked over him in his prime....but people were talking him up as top 30 because of numbers on a 119ppg team that ran all day with like 4 all stars. When the numbers were not even special for the 80s and early 90s west.

This is completely false. 1st of all, "two people"? GMAT wasn't posting back then. It was only me. If GMAT was there, KJ would be ranked in the 30s not 40s. 2nd, I can only think of 1 PG who had a better 90s than KJ. 3rd, when you have 4 all-stars, that negatively affects your numbers. Let's not forget Hornacek also handled the ball a lot and made a lot of plays for that team. So not sure if you realized you were just contradicting yourself using 4 all-stars and numbers in the same argument.


If Nash can be in the Top 30 for some people, I don't see how KJ can't at least be in the Top 40.

[Kblaze8855]

Cases were made for KJ, and if those cases were good enough to get people to change their mind then they must have been good cases.

So...you think minds only change when a reasonable argument is made?

People have been convinced to kill themselves by a guy saying he was the return of jesus and had a comet coming to take them to heaven if they drank the killer kool aid.

There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who are convinced that the dark lord Xenu stranded alien souls in earths volcanoes 75 million years ago and blew them up with atomic bombs that killed the dinosaurs.

I think humans have given us enough reason not to conclude that people coming to believe something makes it true or even.....halfway reasonable.

This is completely false. 1st of all, "two people"? GMAT wasn't posting back then. It was only me. If GMAT was there, KJ would be ranked in the 30s not 40s.

Excuse me if I mixed up both of you posting with just you...posting his words.

2nd, I can only think of 1 PG who had a better 90s than KJ.

You misunderstood. I was saying that players considered better than him at the time....were ranked in the 90s on the list. And they were.

3rd, when you have 4 all-stars, that negatively affects your numbers. Let's not forget Hornacek also handled the ball a lot and made a lot of plays for that team. So not sure if you realized you were just contradicting yourself using 4 all-stars and numbers in the same argument.

For a point guard...on a running team that in the halfcourt just has him dribble around to find a shooter or slash quickly...

Having 2 all star knockdown shooters and one of the best finishers in the NBA hurts you?

I suppose Amare, Marion, and all those shooters hurt nash has well. Pointguards dont benefit from talented finisher after all.

Im sure with the 03 Nuggets in place of the teams he had Nash would have done better than the 18/12 he did.

And im sure Karl Malone, Jeff Malone, Hornacek, and so on really bogged down stockton. And imagine magic without Kareem, Worthy, and Byron? He might have done 25/15 huh?

Because all star teammates...no matter how well their strengths fit yours...make for worse numbers.

If Nash can be in the Top 30 for some people, I don't see how KJ can't at least be in the Top 40.

Two wrongs.....

[GP_20]

So...you think minds only change when a reasonable argument is made?

People have been convinced to kill themselves by a guy saying he was the return of jesus and had a comet coming to take them to heaven if they drank the killer kool aid.

There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who are convinced that the dark lord Xenu stranded alien souls in earths volcanoes 75 million years ago and blew them up with atomic bombs that killed the dinosaurs.

I think humans have given us enough reason not to conclude that people coming to believe something makes it true or even.....halfway reasonable.

I should've added 'majority' somewhere there. The majority that was listening agreed KJ should be up there. Besides people back then were generally stupid. Try convincing millions about lord Xenu today. You will convince some, but it won't be close to the majority listening to you. When we had those votes, KJ was a landslide winner for his spot, majority agreed based upon the arguments.

You misunderstood. I was saying that players considered better than him at the time....were ranked in the 90s on the list. And they were.

KJ was considered better than PGs in their respective primes ranked over him on the list too. What's your point? And some analysts, writers, were comparing KJ to Magic at their respective peaks. So once again, what's your point? I want to see 1 comparison between one of your '90s' PGs to Magic Johnson the GOAT PG.

For a point guard...on a running team that in the halfcourt just has him dribble around to find a shooter or slash quickly...

Having 2 all star knockdown shooters and one of the best finishers in the NBA hurts you?

I suppose Amare, Marion, and all those shooters hurt nash has well. Pointguards dont benefit from talented finisher after all.

Im sure with the 03 Nuggets in place of the teams he had Nash would have done better than the 18/12 he did.

And im sure Karl Malone, Jeff Malone, Hornacek, and so on really bogged down stockton. And imagine magic without Kareem, Worthy, and Byron? He might have done 25/15 huh?

Because all star teammates...no matter how well their strengths fit yours...make for worse numbers.



Two wrongs.....

I guess you missed the Jeff Hornacek part.
He was a big playmaker on the Suns too. And yes having another playmaker on your team hurts the PGs stats. Ask Magic how life was with and without Nixon.

[Kblaze8855]

Besides people back then were generally stupid. Try convincing millions about lord Xenu today.

People back when? how old do you think scientology is?

I should've added 'majority' somewhere there. The majority that was listening agreed KJ should be up there.

You will convince some, but it won't be close to the majority listening to you. When we had those votes, KJ was a landslide winner for his spot, majority agreed based upon the arguments.

A majority agreed nash was the MVP for 2 years. yet...you didnt. Nice how the majority is right when you agree but a bunch of know nothing followers when you dont. And i assure you...the majority of people wont put KJ in the top 30 or 40..or 50...or 60...probably not 75. He didnt make top 50 or the expanded top 60 years later.

All that happened was a bunch of people who dont even remember KJ in his prime reading 20 pages of arguments on how good he is and disregarding the fact that he wasnt even considered an elite player at the time. Coaches didnt see fit to make him an all star in 2 of his 4 best years but now...hes top 25-30 to some. Based on nothing but numbers and the nothing he won in the most inflated PG numbers era of all time....with a stacked team...and running like nobody has since.

Tim hardaway is chosen by NBA coaches to make the ASG...KJ is not...Timmy is all nba second team...KJ is 3rd...the Warriors win more games..with less talent. But 20 years later people who dont remember either one act like KJ is top 40 and Timmy barely cracks top 100....because of inflated late 80s numbers(magic doing 23/12/7, Adams 27/12, Timmy 23/10, Stockton 17/15 and on and on) only one season of 70 games played in the next 7 years and disregarding that timmy was all nba first team which KJ never was(same for Mark Price, Stockton, and Penny).

Its a joke.

KJ was considered better than PGs in their respective primes ranked over him on the list too. What's your point? And some analysts, writers, were comparing KJ to Magic at their respective peaks. So once again, what's your point? I want to see 1 comparison between one of your '90s' PGs to Magic Johnson the GOAT PG.

Some writers? you mean the articles Gmat posted which serves to prove only that everything stupid has been in writing at some point? I can show you articles with people ranking Nash over every point guard since Magic. There are articles calling Michael Ray Richardson a smaller faster Magic Johnson.

What Randy Harvey and Michael wilbon said in 1989 means nothing. If Wilbon says hes the second best point in the NBA...but the media as a whole puts Stockton over him...or coaches put Tim Hardaway in the ASG over him..where is your "Well the majority says..." line of thinking then?

I care as much that wilbon said what he said of KJ as I care about him saying Lebron is the best player since Jordan in his prime. doesnt mean Lebron is better than Duncan in 03, prime Hakeem, or 2000 Shaq. It just means Wilbon said it. Which does not move me in the least. I heard wilbon laugh at the idea that Lebron could score 20ppg in his first few years......

I guess you missed the Jeff Hornacek part.

I did not. He was one of the shooters I mentioned. But I do see how you disregarded the obvious fact that great shooters and finishers help a PG in favor of mentioning one person who averaged 5 assists a game...on a team that scored 114 to 119 a game for 3 or 4 years.

KJ played with so many scorers and shooters he got left on islands to blow past guys. They were running breakneck speeds all game. They were putting up 121 ppg at home. They had over 1200 more posessions some seasons than the Hornets had last year. Dude had a chance to stack numbers like few ever get. Having another capable playmaker didnt keep the ball out of KJs handed. dude dribbled. A lot. He dominated the ball plenty of games. Isolations in the corner and top of the key over and over. He wasnt hurting for touches in any way. The talent he played with did nothing to hurt his game or his numbers.

Remove Chambers, Thunder dan, eddie, Jeff, and so on over those years hes getting less assists as worse player miss shots and fail to finish at the rim like Dan and Chambers could.

He did digits. Like anyone good would...on a 120 ppg team that ran all day and had too much talent to let anyone be doubled.

He was a big playmaker on the Suns too. And yes having another playmaker on your team hurts the PGs stats. Ask Magic how life was with and without Nixon.

Yes...because all teams are the same and an established star point will have the same impact on the playmaking of a guy who was pretty much a point forward as a good passing swingman will on a ball dominating pointguard who is given the keys to the team....

Hornacek did as much to take the ball out of KJs hands as cooper did to magic. Cooper got 6 assists a game a couple times. But only an idiot would act like it was hurting magic. Especialy considering how many times he was on the finishing end of plays from Magic.

Jeff was a 20ppg scorer and a knockdown shooter. That alone helped KJ more than him being abe to handle the ball hurt him(which is..not at all).

Its clear as day KJ benefitted from his teammates. A lot. Dude wasnt hurting for the ball in any way.

[WillC]

I think Hakeem should be ahead of Big O. So I think Oscar is a little high. But I agree that Payton is low and Dirk a might high. Other than that this is a decent list.

A lot of people rate Oscar highly because of his eye-catching statistics (i.e. he averaged a triple-double for a 3-year stretch) but I personally rate him highly for the fact he played on one of the truly great teams of all-time. In the book 'NBA From Top To Bottom', they rate the best teams of all-time based on a formula that looks at number of wins as well as point differentials, etc. The Bucks team with Oscar and Kareem comes out on top.

[jlauber]

A lot of people rate Oscar highly because of his eye-catching statistics (i.e. he averaged a triple-double for a 3-year stretch) but I personally rate him highly for the fact he played on one of the truly great teams of all-time. In the book 'NBA From Top To Bottom', they rate the best teams of all-time based on a formula that looks at number of wins as well as point differentials, etc. The Bucks team with Oscar and Kareem comes out on top.

Most posters here are probably unaware of the fact that Oscar's Bucks went 56-26 the year before he arrived, and a blowout 4-1 loss to the Knicks in the ECF's.. to a 66-16 champion in '71. Then, the next three years they also went 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 (with yet another a trip to the Finals.) Oscar retired following that 73-74 season, and the Bucks IMMEDIATELY plunged to a 38-44 record.

[Hondo]

Did Patrick Ewing do something to offend you?

[pauk]

good list........

1-9 is easy to rank

10-11 is harder... Jerry West or Kobe...

after 11....... it gets ridicilously hard to order everybody correctly

HE MADE ONLY ONE MAJOR ULTRA STUPID MISTAKE.......... WITH DIRK NOWITZKI...

[WillC]

Did Patrick Ewing do something to offend you?

No.

But maybe he did something to offend the 9 publications whose rankings I used?

[WillC]

HE MADE ONLY ONE MAJOR ULTRA STUPID MISTAKE.......... WITH DIRK NOWITZKI...

How so?

I think I ought to write a blog entry to explain/defend Dirk's ranking.