Am I the only one who thinks the Cavs are overrated?

[Indian guy]

wut


Were you trying to temper expectations or did you really believe this?

Believed it 100%. The facts spoke for themselves. Cleveland dropped from a top 5 defensive team under Blatt to all the way down to 10th under Lue. Were somehow even worse during the first 3 rounds of the playoffs, getting lit up by offensively challenged teams like Detroit and Atlanta. Add in the fact that GS was about as bad a match up as they could possibly ask for, there really was no reason to believe they had a prayer. And it's not like I was the only one. Cleveland were heavy underdogs entering the Finals to say the least. But Lue somehow managed to eke out a surprisingly gritty defensive performance from his team. They overplayed Curry to a fault from the get-go and attacked him relentlessly on the other end too. With him contained, GS' offense simply wasn't what it was all season. But that was only half the game. Cleveland still needed LeBron to go nuts on offense and Kyrie to be the ideal #2 man. And that happened too. It was a miraculous victory, when you get down it. That's what you need to beat a 73-win team.

[RedBlackAttack]

Believed it 100%. The facts spoke for themselves. Cleveland dropped from a top 5 defensive team under Blatt to all the way down to 10th under Lue. Were somehow even worse during the first 3 rounds of the playoffs, getting lit up by offensively challenged teams like Detroit and Atlanta. Add in the fact that GS was about as bad a match up as they could possibly ask for, there really was no reason to believe they had a prayer. And it's not like I was the only one. Cleveland were heavy underdogs entering the Finals to say the least. But Lue somehow managed to eke out a surprisingly gritty defensive performance from his team. They overplayed Curry to a fault from the get-go and attacked him relentlessly on the other end too. With him contained, GS' offense simply wasn't what it was all season. But that was only half the game. Cleveland still needed LeBron to go nuts on offense and Kyrie to be the ideal #2 man. And that happened too. It was a miraculous victory, when you get down it. That's what you need to beat a 73-win team.

I don't think it was so miraculous. The only thing that makes it extraordinary in terms of the matchup and who won is that the Cavs were down 3-1 at one point in the series and came back to win.

But, if you were to watch the series in reverse, the Cavs actually outplayed the Warriors consistently starting from Game 3 onward. If not for foul problems which led to Lue playing Kyrie and LeBron too much in the first three quarters of Game 4 leaving nothing for the stretch run, they could have very easily won 4 straight. The Cavs won 13 of 20 quarters after Game 2 and 8 of the final 12 quarters in the series. And, the second halves were just brutal. If you focus just strictly on 3rd and 4th quarters of the last three games, the Cavs beat the Warriors in all but one (Game 7, 3rd quarter) and they outscored them in every fourth quarter.

The Cavs played disinterested basketball in the first two games and the Warriors still never really looked like the daunting offensive juggernaut that they were in the regular season.

All season long, Cleveland showed a propensity to play to the level of the opponent.

They got a taste of what they were up against, adjusted, and straight-up outplayed the Warriors for the rest of the series.

Things like Kyrie Irving being a great player don't count as miraculous to me, because that's what I expect out of him... and that's one of the things that makes the Cavs a really good team. He had been doing it all playoffs after using the regular season as an injury-shortened springboard.


The Warriors were an awesome regular season team, but I had a sneaking suspicion things were going to change in the playoffs. It's a much more physical game and the space that they are given on a nightly basis in the RS will not be there against other elite teams in the playoffs.

At the end of the day -- yes, they went 73-9 in the regular season -- but they also went 15-9 in the playoffs. They didn't have a single sweep in the postseason and they didn't exactly play juggernauts prior to OKC (Houston and Portland).

[JohnnySic]

Cleveland would have beaten GS in '15 too if they were at full strength.

[RedBlackAttack]

Cleveland would have beaten GS in '15 too if they were at full strength.

Just having Kyrie healthy would have been enough, imo. He outplayed Curry in Game 1 last year at maybe 80%. What happened this year wasn't an anomaly. The seeds were there last year, especially when the Cavs were at least semi-healthy in Game 1.

Kyrie never looked overwhelmed defensively last year in that game. In fact, he made some key defensive plays especially toward the end. And he was a guy playing essentially on one leg.

Part of the reason some people thought the Warriors would walk all over the Cavs is because they assumed Curry would destroy Kyrie this year when they finally got a chance to match-up. Remember people saying the Cavs were actually better off with Delly playing 40+ minutes a game last year?

What actually happened was the reverse. And, yes... it calls into question what could have/would have happened if Irving had been healthy last year. He's a solid defender when he needs to be.


But, hey... you need a lot of things to happen for your team to win a title. Usually health comes into play at some point and the Cavs were down to basically their reserve unit with LeBron and JR... and they still managed to take them to 6 games.

I don't begrudge the Warriors of that title though. They were able to stay remarkably healthy and that is all part of it. But I never thought they were so far clearly better than the Cavs.

[RedBlackAttack]

The Cavs were down 3-1 mano y mano, full health.. they needed Golden State's

-best player suspended mid series
-starting center and defensive anchor to go down
-former FMVP iggy to be maimed
-huge chokes / misses from klay & curry (live by the 3, die by the 3)

just to win..

all time, they aren't anything special historically.. just average mid tier championship team.

All I know is that they won the 2016 championship. I don't care about the rest.

As for the supposed "luck" that was on the Cavs' side this year, the string of breaks that went the way of the 2015 Warriors was greater. I mean, the guy who just averaged 27+ points on 48/42/94 splits against them missed basically the entire series last year. That isn't even mentioning all the other injuries the Cavs were dealing with and the injuries to the other opponents they faced last year ... and the teams they didn't have to face (LAC, SAS, OKC) due to injuries or bizarre circumstances.

Draymond Green missed one freaking game. The Cavs played the highest seed they could possibly play in every round through the Finals.

You can point to weird/unusual circumstances for virtually any championship team if you want to make it seem like an improbable turn of events. That's one of the reasons it is so hard to win.

[Rocketswin2013]

Cleveland would have beaten GS in '15 too if they were at full strength.

no question

[tpols]

All I know is that they won the 2016 championship. I don't care about the rest.

As for the supposed "luck" that was on the Cavs' side this year, the string of breaks that went the way of the 2015 Warriors was greater. I mean, the guy who just averaged 27+ points on 48/42/94 splits against them missed basically the entire series last year. Draymond Green missed one freaking game.

And you can point to those kinds of things for virtually any championship team.

Dray missed one game.. dead mid series.. which is a big momentum crusher.. Bogut being simultaneously knocked out as their second best defensive player only compounded it .. but you're right, many teams have caught breaks.. always maintained that. So yall got what you got off it. and yes **** it.. no use in bringing it up context anymore lol.. people only ride with W's like your opening statement.. context will always be damnded by general opinion. that applies to most everything in life sadly.

it's just funny to hear you talk like the cavs "figured the warriors out" just bullshit man...

[Doranku]

Watching them try to guard GS in the Finals will be some comedic gold. They have a +2.6 defense in the playoffs so far (#10 out of 16), and that was despite facing the 13th and 22nd ranked offenses. Heck, Cleveland's own offense functioned at GOAT level in both rounds and they still only managed to pull away in 2 of their 8 victories. They are that bad on D. I'll be very surprised if the Finals isn't a sweep.

Such a fair-weathered loser.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dray missed one game.. dead mid series.. which is a big momentum crusher.. Bogut being simultaneously knocked out as their second best defensive player only compounded it .. but you're right, many teams have caught breaks.. always maintained that. So yall got what you got off it. and yes **** it.. no use in bringing it up context anymore lol.. people only ride with W's like your opening statement.. context will always be damnded by general opinion. that applies to most everything in life sadly.

it's just funny to hear you talk like the cavs "figured the warriors out" just bullshit man...

people do care about context, its just you twist the facts your way.. and I honestly never thought youd be the type to still be so mad after the fact.

Like you name all these symptoms for KD wilting in pressure situations, that its not uncommon for him, yet with Curry you lose your head and leave out all that context and mention it as a break for the opponent team...

you mention Iggy but not Irvivng, you mention Green's suspension, like GSW, the team, doesnt have a player who plays with fire out there alot and is thus is on the edge of suspension alot... like it was some outlier, when in fact, thats simply a risk the team has by having that player on the team (also Green is not better than Curry).

[RedBlackAttack]

Dray missed one game.. dead mid series.. which is a big momentum crusher.. Bogut being simultaneously knocked out as their second best defensive player only compounded it .. but you're right, many teams have caught breaks.. always maintained that. So yall got what you got off it. and yes **** it.. no use in bringing it up context anymore lol.. people only ride with W's like your opening statement.. context will always be damnded by general opinion. that applies to most everything in life sadly.

it's just funny to hear you talk like the cavs "figured the warriors out" just bullshit man...

They won 8 of the last 12 quarters in the series. Maybe "figured them out" isn't the right way to say it. Maybe there was nothing to figure out. Maybe they just flat out-played them.

Whatever the case, it was clear who the better team was at the end of the series. They finished it at Oracle and in a way that frankly was kind of embarrassing (GSW unable to score in the last 4 minutes).

That's all context too, right?

I'm not ignoring context ... I'm choosing to highlight what actually happened, not hypotheticals of what could have happened.

[tpols]

They won 8 of the last 12 quarters in the series. Maybe "figured them out" isn't the right way to say it. Maybe there was nothing to figure out. Maybe they just flat out-played them.

Whatever the case, it was clear who the better team was at the end of the series. They finished it at Oracle and in a way that frankly kind of embarrassing (GSW unable to score in the last 4 minutes).

That's all context too, right?

dude.. they won the last 8 of whatever quarters with their starting center out and his replacements playing like shit. Those "lost" quarters also include draymond not being in the game.. like.. this was the number 5 ranked defensive team in the league, with some combination of their two best defenders out and you post cherrypicked quarterly stats like it was a fair fight.

I'm sorry I have to call you out on that.

Even a guy who has been stanning bron for 5+ years and following his teams diligently disagrees with you. It took a miracle.. a perfect storm for you guys to eek it out. Stop trying to act like it was some dominant comeback thrashing with both teams at full health. You have no problem complaining about last year, but act completely disingenous when the tables are turned.

[Doranku]

tbh, I don't care who you throw out there in game 5. Nobody was stopping this man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qg4B9R8K0c

[RedBlackAttack]

dude.. they won the last 8 of whatever quarters with their starting center out and his replacements playing like shit. Those "lost" quarters also include draymond not being in the game.. like.. this was the number 5 ranked defensive team in the league, with some combination of their two best defenders out and you post cherrypicked quarterly stats like it was a fair fight.

I'm sorry I have to call you out on that.

Even a guy who has been stanning bron for 5+ years and following his teams diligently disagrees with you. It took a miracle.. a perfect storm for you guys to eek it out. Stop trying to act like it was some dominant comeback thrashing with both teams at full health. You have no problem complaining about last year, but act completely disingenous when the tables are turned.

Exactly wrong.

I only bring it up when people attempt to put the Cavs title into the "miraculous" column (it wasn't miraculous). I bring it up because it adds "context" to the whole "listing of breaks" that has been adopted by Warriors fans and/or Cavs detractors.

The Warriors absolutely deserved to win a championship in 2015. Part of being the best team in that season is maintaining health and keeping your head in the most important games.

You know what I was routinely told last year when I mentioned that the Cavs were decimated with injuries? I was told that this is what you should expect when you rely on players prone to "injury" or "dirtiness" (Delly in our case, Draymond in their case).

It's all part of the game.


But, just so we're clear... Draymond Green missing one game and Bogut playing half the series (a guy who was averaging 12 minutes a game) is not even close to the same as Kyrie Irving missing 6+ games, Love for the series, and Shumpert nursing a shoulder and groin injury. They were still very deep, whereas we were using a 6-man rotation.

Not even close to the same circumstances.

[AintNoSunshine]

I am so glad the Cavs won, because had Warriors won it'd be like they won/validate 2 titles off of one finals.