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Local High School Star
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
He was a poor post defender and not quick enough to stay with high scoring perimeter players.
[B]He owned [COLOR="Red"]Jordan and Pippen [/COLOR]even after his Prime and with no back left
[COLOR="red"]What better Perimeter Slashing-Scoring-Driving-Ball Handling-Athletic Threat do u wan
Last edited by CB4GOATPF; 12-11-2009 at 07:33 PM.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by Fatal9
at the claim that Duncan is on par with Bird offensively, who has a legit argument for being the greatest offensive player ever. Scoring wise he was top 5 (flawless scoring ability), was the best non-PG passer ever and arguably the most skilled offensive player to ever play...how the **** is Duncan "on par" with that? Not to mention Bird can create offense for himself and his team the moment he grabs a defensive rebound (why I prefer Bird or Jordan's offensive ability to any big man).
Bird's rings will always be more impressive than Duncan's in peoples minds because of the era Bird won them in (and also since one of Duncan's came in maybe the weakest year ever? the shortened season. another one was also very controversial) so this "he won more" logic isn't convincing anyone. Bird's durability is the only legit knock on him, he got injured way too often, even before '88 and that probably cost him 1-2 rings (in 1985 for sure).
There is one thing that should be measured for an offensive player. It's simple, really... people want to make all these wild claims and make it seem scientific when it fact it's the most simple formula.
How effective was the player at creating a shot for himself, how successful he was at it and how good was he at creating open shots for his teammates?
That's it. It doesn't matter who could shoot better, who could drive better, who could do this and who could do that.... the end result is either an attempted shot, or hopefully a created open shot for a teammate.
Duncan could get his shot off at any time, made the shots at a 50% clip....and he was a guy who could demand double teams consistently, thus creating open shots for his teammates or driving lanes to get to the basket pretty much anytime you gave him the ball.
Larry could get his shot off at any time, made his shots at 50% clip, and whether it was creating shots from his post-up ability, drive/kick ability or whatever... he got the job done.
Just because Bird did it in more ways doesn't mean he was more effective at it. And in he end, effectiveness is all that matters.
That's why I don't see Bird as clearly above Duncan on offense.
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Pringles Reborn
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by Carbine
There is one thing that should be measured for an offensive player. It's simple, really... people want to make all these wild claims and make it seem scientific when it fact it's the most simple formula.
How effective was the player at creating a shot for himself, how successful he was at it and how good was he at creating open shots for his teammates?
That's it. It doesn't matter who could shoot better, who could drive better, who could do this and who could do that.... the end result is either an attempted shot, or hopefully a created open shot for a teammate.
Duncan could get his shot off at any time, made the shots at a 50% clip....and he was a guy who could demand double teams consistently, thus creating open shots for his teammates or driving lanes to get to the basket pretty much anytime you gave him the ball.
Larry could get his shot off at any time, made his shots at 50% clip, and whether it was creating shots from his post-up ability, drive/kick ability or whatever... he got the job done.
Just because Bird did it in more ways doesn't mean he was more effective at it. And in he end, effectiveness is all that matters.
That's why I don't see Bird as clearly above Duncan on offense.
so are you saying duncan is a better scorer than kobe? since duncan can get his shots off anytime and at a 50% clip , kobe only @ 45%
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Tim is just as clutch if not more clutch than Bird. Bird played in the 80's.
come on. im a massive tim duncan fan but that is just blasphimous.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
I do think Duncan was on par with Kobe as an offensive player in his day. Kobe was a more dynamic scorer and shot the ball way more, thus his higher per game totals.
Think of it like this - if you had both players in their prime - and you as a coach wanted to get a good shot for your team, would you feel strongly that Kobe could either score you a hoop or get someone else a quality shot more than Duncan could?
I don't.
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NBA Legend
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
I didn't read the whole thread. I just have a question. Why are we comparing a 3/4 to two centers?
Bird was the 3 on the front line with McHale and Parish during his prime. I don't get this comparison at all.
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Verticle?
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Who said anything about Charles Barkley? No one cares about him.
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Can You?
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Watch a few games of each player and you can answer that question for yourself. Anyone that has seen all 3 players would never have to ask that question.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by vert48
Watch a few games of each player and you can answer that question for yourself. Anyone that has seen all 3 players would never have to ask that question.
Exactly. Bird is not close.
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National High School Star
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by Big#50
Exactly. Bird is not close.
here use this:
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Titles are overrated
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
"It's not personal perference though. As good a player as Bird was, Jordan was better if we're strictly talking prime vs. prime.
Jordan was a better offensive and defensive player. Bird being the better passer/hustler/rebounder.... but clearly not enough to make up the difference."
Nobody is a better offensive player than Bird. Nobody ive seen a lot of at least. Some scored more. but thats not offense. Bird was better than prime Jordan at literally everything but attacking the basket in a faceup situation or on the break. Better shooter from outside and midrange, a better passer(especially feeding the post and out of double teams), a better off the ball player who spread the floor with good positioning, and a better back to the basket player. He had more post moves, had a much much better off hand, and was far less of a ball stopper. He made far more difficult shots than Jordan too. Jordans talent in his youth was getting good shots not making difficult ones aside from the wicked hangtime ones. He didnt have the floaters, left handed hooks, and fallaways Bird did when he was at his peak. He was also of more benefit to his teammates offense and was far less selfish. You would never see Bird passing up good shots to feed guys just for an assist because hes trying to keep up a triple double streak.
Jordan was a better offensive player if we combine the way he played in the late 90s with what he did in his prime. 1989 Jordan plus 1998 Jordans post game and selflessness is a better offensive player than Bird.
But at no point was he both the absurdly athletic Jordan and the unselfish teammate helping "MJ him J fadeaway perfect" Jordan. If prime MJ is better than prime Bird its because of on the ball defense. Its not because of offense.
Jordan > Bird is a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. But its not because of an offensive edge.
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DominantElement
Fan in the Stands (unregistered)
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by Fatal9
???
What's so confusing about that? Bird wasn't the best defender out on the floor. Bird was great at reading the passing lanes and that's about it and the same thing for Magic Johnson, both were just average individual defenders at best. It's what separates Michael Jordan from both those guys, his defense.
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by allball
here use this:
Bird's D was average at best. Only few players in the NBA were great on offense and D.
Wilt
Jordan
Hakeem
KAJ
Duncan
Tim Duncan is a better player.
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Pringles Reborn
Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by Big#50
Bird's D was average at best. Only few players in the NBA were great on offense and D.
Wilt
Jordan
Hakeem
KAJ
Duncan
Tim Duncan is a better player.
GTFO
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Re: What makes Bird greater than Shaq/Duncan?
Originally Posted by Rekindled
GTFO
Pistons fan. I think Tim beat you guys in the finals.
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