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Old 01-09-2011, 04:36 AM   #316
ginobli2311
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Well, '05 was a down year for Kobe, so at his '05 level, I seriously doubt he wins a title in '91 Jordan's place.

'06 Kobe was great, '92 was probably Jordan's 3rd best season, but I could see Kobe with prime Pippen and Grant winning, but it's far from a guarantee, the Knicks took the Bulls to 7 and both the Blazers and Cavs were stacked. Kobe was pretty clearly better than Drexler and Pippen outplayed Clyde in the '92 finals, so they'd have a shot vs Portland.

'07 Kobe in '93 Jordan's place? Hm, very tough to say considering how different the situations were. The Knicks and Suns both won over 60 games.



I know Kobe was terrible, but my point is that, losing with Malone and Payton means nothing as far as his legacy or why his series was bad/disappointing because they were useless in that series. Payton sucked throughout the playoffs and Malone was an excellent fit when he was healthy, but he wasn't healthy. I think that a healthy Malone may have been enough.


i don't think anyone is denying payton and malone were bad....or that the lakers didn't have a ton of depth.

but look. that series could have easily gone the lakers way if kobe plays well instead of terrible. and thats how it should be for winning titles. you shouldn't be able to shoot 40% for a series as a main guy and not impact the game defensively much and still win.

game 1. actually a close game. malone and fisher were awful. shaq was amazing. kobe was terrible. 25 points on 27 shots and he only shot 4 free throws. if kobe plays better....lakers could easily win that game.

game 3: blow out. kobe was terrible, but the lakers didn't have much of a chance.

game 4: again. relatively close game. kobe was terrible again. 20 points on 25 shots. 0 rebounds. 2 assists. LOL.....just a beyond bad game. and again not much of an impact defensively.

game 5: terrible again. 24 points on 21 shots. only 3 boards and 4 assists even though the ball was in his hands all game. not much of an impact defensively.

we can play the blame game all we want. if malone and payton had played better the lakers could have won. no doubt. but this isn't about them.

LOL...if kobe had played better the lakers could have won. i don't know why everyone just ignores this. why was kobe jacking up terrible shots and not running the offense? why was he freezing shaq out? why wasn't he impacting the game defensively?

i'm so sick of this pattern with kobe where people think a star player should win titles while playing like shit. shouldn't work that way. that is why 04 and 08 are very telling for kobe. when he played on teams that weren't noticeably better.....his play sucked and his team got destroyed. just like they should have.

you lose the right to complain or hate on your teammates if you yourself play like crap. kobe and the kobe stans need to learn this. it would be one thing if kobe played great and they lost. but obviously that is not what happened. and i guess we'll just continue to ignore the fact that shaq was beasting all series long as well.

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Old 01-09-2011, 04:42 AM   #317
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ginobli2311
i don't think anyone is denying payton and malone were bad....or that the lakers didn't have a ton of depth.

but look. that series could have easily gone the lakers way if kobe plays well instead of terrible. and thats how it should be for winning titles. you shouldn't be able to shoot 40% for a series as a main guy and not impact the game defensively much and still win.

game 1. actually a close game. malone and fisher were awful. shaq was amazing. kobe was terrible. 25 points on 27 shots and he only shot 4 free throws. if kobe plays better....lakers could easily win that game.

game 3: blow out. kobe was terrible, but the lakers didn't have much of a chance.

game 4: again. relatively close game. kobe was terrible again. 20 points on 25 shots. 0 rebounds. 2 assists. LOL.....just a beyond bad game. and again not much of an impact defensively.

game 5: terrible again. 24 points on 21 shots. only 3 boards and 4 assists even though the ball was in his hands all game. not much of an impact defensively.

we can play the blame game all we want. if malone and payton had played better the lakers could have won. no doubt. but this isn't about them.

LOL...if kobe had played better the lakers could have won. i don't know why everyone just ignores this. why was kobe jacking up terrible shots and not running the offense? why was he freezing shaq out? why wasn't he impacting the game defensively?

i'm so sick of this pattern with kobe where people think a star player should win titles while playing like shit. shouldn't work that way. that is why 04 and 08 are very telling for kobe. when he played on teams that weren't noticeably better.....his play sucked and his team got destroyed. just like they should have.

I know, games 1 and 4 were very winnable, and if they win either one, it could be a different series, if they win game 1, they have the lead, or if they win game 4, then worst case, they go back to LA down 3-2, best case and they can close out the series in LA.

I just take issue with people saying "Kobe lost with Malone and Payton", because that fact means nothing and is deceptive, it could also mislead some who didn't watch basketball back then(believe it or not, there's an increasing amount of posters who didn't follow basketball back then). The statement alone doesn't tell you that those 2 were worthless in that series.

If someone says, Kobe played terrible and they could have won if he played better like you said, then I won't argue, but when they start bringing Malone and Payton into the discussion, that's when I'll point that out.
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:43 AM   #318
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

well if you read ginoblis posts, he would have you believe the bulls with kobe win 0 rings and probably never even make it to the finals. i am beginning to believe the guy. oh wait i dont, because he has some sort of personal vendetta against him. im sure a few paragraphs a night explaining to us why kobe was the reason for his 2 finals losses helps him sleep better at night. sleep well tonight, young skywalker.
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:44 AM   #319
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I know, games 1 and 4 were very winnable, and if they win either one, it could be a different series, if they win game 1, they have the lead, or if they win game 4, then worst case, they go back to LA down 3-2, best case and they can close out the series in LA.

I just take issue with people saying "Kobe lost with Malone and Payton", because that fact means nothing and is deceptive, it could also mislead some who didn't watch basketball back then(believe it or not, there's an increasing amount of posters who didn't follow basketball back then). The statement alone doesn't tell you that those 2 were worthless in that series.

If someone says, Kobe played terrible and they could have won if he played better like you said, then I won't argue, but when they start bringing Malone and Payton into the discussion, that's when I'll point that out.

exactly.

game 2 is great evidence of this. kobe was amazing and the lakers won. and that relates back to this thread in a way. kobe would have had to be amazing night in night out to win titles in 92 and 93 on those bulls teams. and i simply don't think he could produce that consistent dominance on both ends the way jordan did.

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Old 01-09-2011, 04:46 AM   #320
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

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Originally Posted by imdaman99
well if you read ginoblis posts, he would have you believe the bulls with kobe win 0 rings and probably never even make it to the finals. i am beginning to believe the guy. oh wait i dont, because he has some sort of personal vendetta against him. im sure a few paragraphs a night explaining to us why kobe was the reason for his 2 finals losses helps him sleep better at night. sleep well tonight, young skywalker.

actually wrong.

i said that they for sure make the finals in 91.

sorry. a kobe led 92 or 93 bulls would seriously struggle to beat the knicks. jordan needed 6 and 7 respectively. so kobe would somehow do better replacing jordan playing the exact type of team that owns him?

LOL...please explain. please explain why kobe (with a history of huge struggles against tough/physical defense and subpar finals performances) would beat the knicks in 92/93 and then go on to beat a deadly blazers and great suns teams? knowing that jordan struggled to win and played downright legendary in both finals.

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Old 01-09-2011, 04:54 AM   #321
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

What is your favorite, tasty breakfast? If you are reading this, I think I can make a good guess that itís pancakes. Does the smell of warm, golden brown pancakes drenched in pancake syrup wake you up in the morning and get you going faster? If you love pancakes as much as I do, the smell of pancakes is enough to get you moving that much faster and get you out to the breakfast table.
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:56 AM   #322
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

here is the best example i can think of how fragile a playoff series really is:

kobe in the do or die game 4 in the 2004 finals:

20 points on 32% shooting / 2 free throws / 0 boards / 2 assists / 1 steal / 0 blocks / 3 turnovers

jordan in the do or die game 4 of the 93 knicks series:

54 points on 60% shooting / 14 free throws / 6 boards / 2 assists / 2 steals / 1 block / 2 turnovers



do you people now see the difference? if the bulls lose that game 4....they are pretty much for sure losing that series. just like the lakers. and look at the difference. look at what jordan did in that moment.....then look at what kobe did in that moment.

and you want me to believe that kobe could win that 93 series? GTFO.

LOL
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:00 AM   #323
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

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Originally Posted by ginobli2311
actually wrong.

i said that they for sure make the finals in 91.

sorry. a kobe led 92 or 93 bulls would seriously struggle to beat the knicks. jordan needed 6 and 7 respectively. so kobe would somehow do better replacing jordan playing the exact type of team that owns him?

LOL...please explain. please explain why kobe (with a history of huge struggles against tough/physical defense and subpar finals performances) would beat the knicks in 92/93 and then go on to beat a deadly blazers and great suns teams? knowing that jordan struggled to win and played downright legendary in both finals.
look i love john starks more than any other player in the world, but lets face it. he was undersized. kobe has never been locked down by someone shorter than him in the playoffs (i guess in a losing playoff series). it doesnt matter how many starks, derek harpers, greg anthonys, rolando blackmans, doc rivers or any other fresh legs you throw at him, kobe would not be denied by them. i guess you can put mason on him for a few plays but just like against jordan, that would only be a success for a game.

im not saying kobe has great numbers in that series, but the bulls might slip by with kobe instead of mj there. but feel free to show me the proof where kobes been shut down in a series that the lakers have lost by players he has 2-3 inches on.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:02 AM   #324
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

lets not forget all the help the bulls got from the refs all those playoffs. charles smith stripped 100 times, and i suppose all 100 times it was clean. long live michael jordan's legacy <3
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:06 AM   #325
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by imdaman99
look i love john starks more than any other player in the world, but lets face it. he was undersized. kobe has never been locked down by someone shorter than him in the playoffs (i guess in a losing playoff series). it doesnt matter how many starks, derek harpers, greg anthonys, rolando blackmans, doc rivers or any other fresh legs you throw at him, kobe would not be denied by them. i guess you can put mason on him for a few plays but just like against jordan, that would only be a success for a game.

im not saying kobe has great numbers in that series, but the bulls might slip by with kobe instead of mj there. but feel free to show me the proof where kobes been shut down in a series that the lakers have lost by players he has 2-3 inches on.

you do realize that jordan and kobe are pretty much the same size....right?

and tony allen says hi. not like kobe destroys tony allen. add in the more physical defense and hand checking.

LOL

kobe averages 28 points on 42% shooting vs tony allen in his career. and that is with these soft rules. those numbers would drop back in the early 90s.

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Old 01-09-2011, 05:08 AM   #326
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

I'm not gonna be pc, and I'ma repeat it.

Kobe aint leading the Bulls to chips... period.

People seem to forget one tiny aspect....

MJ MADE PIP AND THE BULLS end of story.

It becomes very easy to look back and say... "oh well, Pippen was a top 50 player of all time, and Grant was an all star" but they don't get there, they don't earn their stripes, their toughness, their competitive edge, their confidence without MJ... this is a FACT.

Its been documented over and over by coaches, insiders and the players themselves. This aint a make belief analysis by Mj fans or basketball fans in general, this is FACT.

And if Kobe was there in that time, that means he would have to be there throughout their entire careers.

And... even if this ridiculous theoretical fantasy is to be taken as a possibility, Kobe has not performed near the post season level that Mj has... another FACT.

I doubt they make the Finals in any season that Kobe plays with that Bulls team, going up against the teams that they faced on their road to get there. People forget MJ had some great series, but besides the series he had defining games that won them the series. He had moments that earned that Bulls team another stripe, and confidence.

Kobe wouldn't and has never done that.

Kobe is a great player, but highly overrated in his 'leadership' abilities. Specially during the playoffs in which he's been on the outskirts of sub par for a player of his caliber. His performances in important or series deciding games is horrible, bordering on embarrassingly pathetic.

There is no way in hell Kobe leads the Bulls to the Finals... NONE!

Specially during that time in his career. He'd shoot them out of any hope of getting to the Finals.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:08 AM   #327
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

so tony allen plays 10-15 mins a game and suddenly he destroys kobe bryant. i dunno i guess that was tony allen and not ray allen covering kobe for most of them playoffs. i been beat guys. i submit to kobe being ringless if he never played with shaq or gasol
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:12 AM   #328
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

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MJ MADE PIP AND THE BULLS end of story.
now that's a fanboy right here.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:13 AM   #329
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

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now that's a fanboy right here.
Typical.

Did skim my post or do you just love to cherry pick something?
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:13 AM   #330
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Default Re: Replace prime kobe with MJ on bulls 91-93 (no trolling upon entry!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by imdaman99
so tony allen plays 10-15 mins a game and suddenly he destroys kobe bryant. i dunno i guess that was tony allen and not ray allen covering kobe for most of them playoffs. i been beat guys. i submit to kobe being ringless if he never played with shaq or gasol

i never said that. i never said tony allen destroys kobe. i never said kobe would be ringless.

you lose a debate and now try to shift focus. the idea that kobe could just shoot over the top of smaller defenders is laughable. why didn't he just shoot over ray allen and tony allen in the finals last year? its not like ray allen can block his shot.

and kobe couldn't do that with these soft ass defensive rules for perimeter players now. imagine starks bodying up kobe all game and bumping and hand checking when he did try to drive. lol....he would struggle. just like jordan struggled. did you watch those games? jordan was awful at times...just awful.

and you want me to believe kobe could do better than that version of jordan. LOL. and we aren't even talking about jordan's superior defense either.

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