Was the ABA getting better than the NBA?

[Dr.J4ever]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA%E2%80%93NBA_merger

This article from Wikipedia was an eye opener for me. For some of you who are lazy, I will give some quotes below. The link basically detailed what happened during the ABA NBA merger, including the talks before and after. Since I was too young, for the longest time, I have been relying on the opinion of other people I respected, so this link quotes respectable people, and some of their opinions surprised even me.

From Wiki:
" Gradually, the ABA began to prove itself superior, going 15-10 against the NBA in 1973, 16-7 in 1974, and 31-17 in 1975. Overall, the ABA won more of these interleague games than the NBA did, and in EVERY MATCHUP OF REIGNING CHAMPIONS from the two leagues, the ABA champion WON."

Wiki quotes Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe:

" ....those NBA ABA games were intense.."

Larry Brown:

" When some exhibition games were arranged in the 1970's to make some money and we beat them, the NBA said they weren't up for the games. Come on. When I coached Carolina, we played the Knicks after they won a championship and we went out and beat NY. We also played the Celtics a couple of times and beat them. Heinsohn would say that we were playing to win and they weren't, but I'd check the box score at the end of the game and see that Tommy played his regulars 35-40 minutes, so what does that tell you?"

From Wikipedia:

" Interest in the ABA vs NBA rivalry extended beyond the two leagues management. In 1976, CBS sought to establish a post season Playoff between the ABA and NBA, and to win the right to broadcast those games."

From Wikipedia on the 1st Post Merger Season:

* of the 84 players in the ABA, 63 played in the NBA
* in the NBA Finals, 5 of the 10 starting 5 were former ABA players
* 4 of the NBA's top 10 scorers were from the ABA
* Don Buse with the Pacers led the league in steals and assist
* The Denver Nuggets(beaten by the NY Nets in the last ABA Finals) won the Midwest Division with the leagues 2nd best record. Just a game back of the best record(the Lakers)
* Spurs who could never get past the 1st round in the ABA playoffs, won their own division in their 1st year and won it 5 of their first 6 seasons in the NBA

From Wikipedia on the ABA's legacy:

* slam dunk contest
* pressing and trapping defense(see the article and what Hubie Brown comments about this aspect
* faster pace of play
* drafting of underclassmen

Wiki quotes Doug Moe:

" ..the NBA now plays like the old ABA. Guys play hard. They show their enthusiasm and there is a closeness in the league. Hell, the NBA might have won the battle, but we won the war. The NBA now plays our kind of basketball"

Wiki quotes Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe:

" When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vecsey wrote the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were top 5 in basketball, I thought they had no objectivity and were too close to the teams. Then came the merger and San Antonio and Denver win their divisions. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right ."

There are a lot of very interesting things in the article. If you are into the true history of pro basketball, you have to read it because it should affect discussions of GOATS in my humble opinion.
Plus, can we please include the ABA stats officially into the NBA. Are we just gonna throw out Doc's 11,000 points in the ABA? Really?

We want justice.

[Euroleague]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.

[Dr.J4ever]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.

Sorry, not a good comparison. The NBA dominates the Euroleague in H2H, and NBA players have dominated international competition, not just TEAM USA vs the world, but France winning the Eurobasket. The NBA should not take these challenges seriously, and me personally, I would not want any Sixers joining these so called "world championships" today or in the future.

[Black and White]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.

Hmm..........

CP3
George
Durant
LeBron
Howard

would destroy any lineup Euroleague would put fourth


Hell this line-up would touch the Euroleague best aswell:

Lillard
Wade
Rudy Gay
LaMarcus
Anthony Davis

[ABfor3]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.

You're name is the reason why I can never take you serious.

[MavsSuperFan]

The NBA has repeatedly dodged the Euroleague in the proposed FIBA world championship that would have the NBA champ play against the Euroleague champ.

It was scheduled to happen, then Barca beat the Lakers and Stern cancelled it.

The NBA are *******.

PERIOD.

Why the hell is any of this a revelation to you? As an NBA only fan you should know this is standard operating procedure. The NBA never ever allows itself to face any actual real competition EVER.

I have never watched euroleague, but anthony parker proves NBA> Euroleague

3

[Dr.J4ever]

Below might be a good description of the difference between the ABA and the NBA:

"The NBA had better centers (KAJ, Wilt, Cowens, Unseld >> Gilmore, Haywood, McGinnis) and the broader (!= better) talent base. However, the NBA was reactionary, static and full of "vanilla" game, i.e. running EVERYTHING thru the C, and heavy usage of pick and roll and lay ups. Dunking was frowned upon, and forwards were thuggy enforcers (Kermit Washington).

The ABA was smaller, more chaotic, but very innovative. They compensated the relative lack of good centers with strong forward play (Erving, Hawkins, Barry, Bobby Jones etc), run and gun, aggressive dunking, 3pt shooting (they actually HAD a 3pt line) and of course the Slam Dunk Contest. The players were sometimes WACKY and were paid less, but they also had a strong "we belong together" feel."

Fair? If you read very carefully the ABA game, it's style of play is well represented in today's era, maybe more than the pre-merger NBA style. People often talk about the NBA from 1976- 1977 onwards, as if it was the same league before that year. It absolutely wasn't.

It couldn't have been. The influx of the ABA players from top players to role players, to coaches and their distinct coaching philosophies were already gradually changing the NBA. The NBA after 1976 was a stronger league(team wise,talent wise), than the NBA before that season. This is just common sense. So a distinction must be made pre- merger and post merger.

After reading up on many of the observers at the time, many have said some of the ABA teams like the Kentucky Colonels and Denver Nuggets were talented enough to win titles in the NBA during the mid 70s. Teams like the Nets who won ABA titles(led by Dr.J) played a more finesse game, and might have struggled more in the pre merger NBA, some said.

Still, NBA champs at the time like Barry's Warriors and Havlicek's Celtics didn't look all that imposing, and I've wondered if there ever had been some kind of "Super Bowl", would the ABA have gotten the better of the NBA. sometime from 1974-1976 before the merger? After all, a star-less Phoenix Suns team pushed that Celtic team to the brink in a classic series. Would a talented Nets team led by a prime Doc have beaten that Celtic team?

When some people say, Doc's Sixers lost to Bill Walton and Portland in the 1st post merger NBA, they forget this is already in the REINFORCED NBA. Indeed, I've seen the discussions here on this board on how key a role Lucas played in winning the title for Portland.

An NBA champ vs. ABA champ would have been just that. The NBA team would have no reinforcements of talent, and the ABA teams would have all that younger talent and innovative coaching (Larry Brown, Hubie Brown) at their disposal. Indeed, CBS wanted this ABA vs. NBA playoff format to happen. Oh how different history would have been if Doc's Nets were given a chance, and defeated the Celtics.

Alas, the NBA would have none of it. After sensing financial weakness, the NBA went for the kill with the merger talks. ABA teams were punished for entry into the NBA by not getting their share of top draft picks in the 1st few years after the merger, but teams like Denver and San Antonio did well anyway winning their divisions.

I was just too young to have seen all these legendary ABA exploits of the Doctor, but the implications of what the ABA represented are potentially enormous in NBA history. All these GOAT discussions have to consider Doc's 2 other ABA titles, and 2 other scoring titles in his prime.

Doc's total would then be 6 Finals appearances(2 in the ABA, 4 in the NBA), and 3 Titles(2 in the ABA, 1 in the NBA). This is still more than Lebron, to this point, and tied with Bird with 3 Titles among SF's.

At the very least, the NBA, in honor of the ABA and it's legacy, should finally count ABA stats. We lift the greats like Erving up their proper place in history, and honor other ABA players who did well but never reached the merger year.

[Dragic4Life]

Personally I exclude any ABA accolades from GOAT discussion.

[nycelt84]

The ABA was on the verge of going out of business in 1976 with teams like the Denver Nuggets applying for NBA membership to escape the sinking ship. Merger or no merger 1975-76 was going to be the ABA's final year.

[bizil]

Below might be a good description of the difference between the ABA and the NBA:

"The NBA had better centers (KAJ, Wilt, Cowens, Unseld >> Gilmore, Haywood, McGinnis) and the broader (!= better) talent base. However, the NBA was reactionary, static and full of "vanilla" game, i.e. running EVERYTHING thru the C, and heavy usage of pick and roll and lay ups. Dunking was frowned upon, and forwards were thuggy enforcers (Kermit Washington).

The ABA was smaller, more chaotic, but very innovative. They compensated the relative lack of good centers with strong forward play (Erving, Hawkins, Barry, Bobby Jones etc), run and gun, aggressive dunking, 3pt shooting (they actually HAD a 3pt line) and of course the Slam Dunk Contest. The players were sometimes WACKY and were paid less, but they also had a strong "we belong together" feel."

Fair? If you read very carefully the ABA game, it's style of play is well represented in today's era, maybe more than the pre-merger NBA style. People often talk about the NBA from 1976- 1977 onwards, as if it was the same league before that year. It absolutely wasn't.

It couldn't have been. The influx of the ABA players from top players to role players, to coaches and their distinct coaching philosophies were already gradually changing the NBA. The NBA after 1976 was a stronger league(team wise,talent wise), than the NBA before that season. This is just common sense. So a distinction must be made pre- merger and post merger.

After reading up on many of the observers at the time, many have said some of the ABA teams like the Kentucky Colonels and Denver Nuggets were talented enough to win titles in the NBA during the mid 70s. Teams like the Nets who won ABA titles(led by Dr.J) played a more finesse game, and might have struggled more in the pre merger NBA, some said.

Still, NBA champs at the time like Barry's Warriors and Havlicek's Celtics didn't look all that imposing, and I've wondered if there ever had been some kind of "Super Bowl", would the ABA have gotten the better of the NBA. sometime from 1974-1976 before the merger? After all, a star-less Phoenix Suns team pushed that Celtic team to the brink in a classic series. Would a talented Nets team led by a prime Doc have beaten that Celtic team?

When some people say, Doc's Sixers lost to Bill Walton and Portland in the 1st post merger NBA, they forget this is already in the REINFORCED NBA.
Indeed, I've seen the discussions here on this board on how key a role Lucas played in winning the title for Portland.

An NBA champ vs. ABA champ would have been just that. The NBA team would have no reinforcements of talent, and the ABA teams would have all that younger talent and innovative coaching (Larry Brown, Hubie Brown) at their disposal. Indeed, CBS wanted this ABA vs. NBA playoff format to happen. Oh how different history would have been if Doc's Nets were given a chance, and defeated the Celtics.

Alas, the NBA would have none of it. After sensing financial weakness, the NBA went for the kill with the merger talks. ABA teams were punished for entry into the NBA by not getting their share of top draft picks in the 1st few years after the merger, but teams like Denver and San Antonio did well anyway winning their divisions.

I was just too young to have seen all these legendary ABA exploits of the Doctor, but the implications of what the ABA represented are potentially enormous in NBA history. All these GOAT discussions have to consider Doc's 2 other ABA titles, and 2 other scoring titles in his prime.

Doc's total would then be 6 Finals appearances(2 in the ABA, 4 in the NBA), and 3 Titles(2 in the ABA, 1 in the NBA). This is still more than Lebron, to this point, and tied with Bird with 3 Titles among SF's.

At the very least, the NBA, in honor of the ABA and it's legacy, should finally count ABA stats. We lift the greats like Erving up their proper place in history, and honor other ABA players who did well but never reached the merger year.

Great post! I've always said that Bird or Bron is the GOAT NBA SF BUT the Dr. is the GOAT SF in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY! Doc's total career resume is STILL the most impressive of all time in my book. And the NBA absorbed ABA teams and concepts and took them to the next level.

The ABA guys were LARGELY responsible for the evolution of SG, SF, and PF positions. Thompson redefined the SG spot in terms of a 6'4 (a smaller kind of SG today) freakish athlete who had a great scoring skillset. Gervin redefined the SG spot by being a 6'7 or 6'8 and having an EPIC scoring skillset. Guys like MJ, Wade, T-Mac, Kobe, etc. evolved what those guys brought to the table. I mean SHIT Skywalker was Jordan's presenter at the HOF! That says a lot about the ABA and that talent pool. Other than PG and C, the ABA was just as good as the NBA in my opinion. It would have been EPIC to see Pistol Pete, Tiny Archibald, and Earl Monroe in the ABA!

[Dr.J4ever]

The ABA was on the verge of going out of business in 1976 with teams like the Denver Nuggets applying for NBA membership to escape the sinking ship. Merger or no merger 1975-76 was going to be the ABA's final year.

Uhh..no...You never do your business adversary a favor. You take advantage of weakness and gobble it up.The NBA didn't do the ABA a favor in 1976. They must have seen an emerging threat somewhere. Either directly from the ABA, possibly from getting a favorable CBS deal and reviving interest in it, or because they knew the best younger players were in the ABA.

Perhaps, the NBA itself was struggling, and they thought getting the ABA's Julius Erving, the best all around player in the game at the time, could help revitalize their fortunes.

[Dr.J4ever]

Great post! I've always said that Bird or Bron is the GOAT NBA SF BUT the Dr. is the GOAT SF in PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL HISTORY! Doc's total career resume is STILL the most impressive of all time in my book. And the NBA absorbed ABA teams and concepts and took them to the next level.

The ABA guys were LARGELY responsible for the evolution of SG, SF, and PF positions. Thompson redefined the SG spot in terms of a 6'4 (a smaller kind of SG today) freakish athlete who had a great scoring skillset. Gervin redefined the SG spot by being a 6'7 or 6'8 and having an EPIC scoring skillset. Guys like MJ, Wade, T-Mac, Kobe, etc. evolved what those guys brought to the table. I mean SHIT Skywalker was Jordan's presenter at the HOF! That says a lot about the ABA and that talent pool. Other than PG and C, the ABA was just as good as the NBA in my opinion. It would have been EPIC to see Pistol Pete, Tiny Archibald, and Earl Monroe in the ABA!

You're so right. The legacy of the ABA is so ignored historically, I think I know the reason why.

Part of it is politics and there is still a lot of ill will from NBA old hands who remember. The owners of the St.Louis franchise were able to get a coup of a deal that lasted until a settlement was finally reached with the NBA just a year or two ago. Can you imagine the former owners of the franchise have been receiving a % of the vast TV money the NBA has been getting all these years? In 1976, they(NBA) never could have imagined how much money they would be throwing away, just to absorb these 4 ABA teams, and the other players from the other ABA teams. This deal has destroyed much of the nostalgia many NBA executives might have attributed to the ABA by now, if not for this deal. It's hard to feel good for your now defunct former rival if they are still benefiting from you today financially.

The other part is NBA marketing. The NBA would love us to believe that the NBA started in 1980 when the Bid-Magic rivalry was starting to develop.After all,it was during the 80s when the NBA started taking off again. The 70s were a dark age in NBA basketball, despite Doc rejuvenating the league.

The NBA was perceived, during the 70s, as too black, no defense, too selfish, and too much cocaine. The Magic-Bird era during the 80s changed much of that. Much of the history and legacy of the 70s has been thrown by the wayside.

[Iceman#44]

Its a same that Doc and Pistol Pete Maravich were divided after 2 preseason games...together they couldve a ring in the 70's

[nycelt84]

Uhh..no...You never do your business adversary a favor. You take advantage of weakness and gobble it up.The NBA didn't do the ABA a favor in 1976. They must have seen an emerging threat somewhere. Either directly from the ABA, possibly from getting a favorable CBS deal and reviving interest in it, or because they knew the best younger players were in the ABA.

Perhaps, the NBA itself was struggling, and they thought getting the ABA's Julius Erving, the best all around player in the game at the time, could help revitalize their fortunes.

The ABA was not about to receive any TV deals. I suggest you do some reading from ABA insiders at the time. The league's final year the goal of al the higher ups was to accept a favorable merger deal with the NBA which was hard because the league was on the verge of folding. There was no future for the ABA. Even the league's teams wanted out.

[jlip]

I have to agree with NYCelts84. Check out the last 11 minutes of this documentary on the ABA entitled, "Longshots: The Life and Times of the American Basketball Association." While the basketball talent was there, all signs point to the ABA's demise being inevitable due to them being financially strapped.