Convince Me Garnett Is Higher Than Nowitzki AllTime

[Doranku]

[/B]

This.

Because if you broke it all down offense vs offense and defense vs defense....KG would come out ahead.

And everyone knows that shouldn't be the case.

We can agree to disagree. I'm not saying it isn't close, I just think that KG should be ahead. And it's not just because of offense/offense and defense/defense comparisons. The main thing that sets KG ahead of Dirk, imo, is that he didn't have any glaring weaknesses that needed to be addressed through personnel. He didn't need a Tyson Chandler. He's one of those special players who can flourish with any team.

That, to me, makes him more valuable than Dirk.

[StateOfMind12]

carrying a T-wolves team to 52 wins with Wally Szczerbiak and garbage doesnt count?

The Mavs last year didnt have star power but guys that know there roles with a great comination of veterans and youth that can match up in any pace and style and plus were very well coached.

KG's T-wolves on the other hand had KG leading his team in every statistical category.

Dirk would have gotten past the 1st round with one of those T'Wolves teams before 2004. Dirk never had a strong supporting cast either and he still made deep playoff runs and did major damage in the post-season while KG never really did.

Like I said, Dirk is better at carrying a lesser team than KG but KG is better at maximizing a talented team's potential than Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

Barkley was arguably a better rebounder and had just as many guard skills and was right there as a passer and some would say better. Its not really the same.

Dirk vs KG is scoring vs literally every single other thing the game asks of a player. KG vs Barkley is scoring and rebounding vs all aspects of defense with similar skills those issues aside. Barkley had a more well rounded game than I think you have implied.

KG and Dirk are far more different than KG and Barkley. You could argue Dirk has a bigger edge in scoring than Barkley does but thats a whole long discussion.

Really...I cant think of a more accurate analogy to the question than Nique vs Pippen. Maybe Payton vs Iverson? I might side with Iverson there when he has no advantage anywhere that isnt an aspect of scoring.

But thats a shooting guard asked to score 30 a game vs a point...so maybe it doesnt work? I dont know. **** it...

Argument doesnt need to be had again. I just dont see how anyone claims itspeople who dont know the game who favor total players. Know nothing fans have been behind the most flashy bigtime scorer forever....

Scoring will always get the love of people who dont look deeper. I think that fact should be considered when you say such things....

Its just two offensive minded power forwards vs a more well rounded player.

I'd say Dirk has played better defense than Barkley and was more clutch as well...etc.

No comparison is going to be perfect.

The simple fact remains that can't break players down the way most people do with this offense vs offense and defense vs defense approach.

You, whether you know it or not, do this in your breakdowns because I know you rank Dirk over Malone. Well, Malone was simply a more well rounded player. Better defender and rebounder and probably a slightly better passer most of his career. And while he wasn't KG on defense...he was also better than KG offensively.

So how on earth could Dirk be better than Malone using the breakdown that people love to use? The answer is he couldn't. The answer is that some things about the game can't be measured like that. Like Dirk's skill set and what it means for a team in the playoffs. Like Dirk's ability to create match up problems and impact the game hugely on offense without ever touching the ball.

I know you know this because I've seen you rank Dirk over Malone....and in order to get to that point, you have to delve more deeply into what "impact" players actually have.

And in terms of total impact, its an insult to Dirk to claim KG is on a different level (not saying you said this)....

[DMAVS41]

We can agree to disagree. I'm not saying it isn't close, I just think that KG should be ahead. And it's not just because of offense/offense and defense/defense comparisons. The main thing that sets KG ahead of Dirk, imo, is that he didn't have any glaring weaknesses that needed to be addressed through personnel. He didn't need a Tyson Chandler. He's one of those special players who can flourish with any team.

That, to me, makes him more valuable than Dirk.

Yes he did. He needed a Paul Pierce. Holy shit dude....now needing Tyson Chandler to win a title proves you aren't as good as somebody that needed Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and a solid supporting cast?

And what team hasn't Dirk flourished with? He's played on run and gun teams, slow it down defensive teams like 05, he's played with average players and won 67 games, he's played with horrible centers, and finally a good one last year.

Wow. Just could not disagree more. LOL @ Dirk needed Chandler to win meaning anything while KG needed a far better player in Pierce and your boy Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol (and Phil Jackson)....

[StateOfMind12]

Bottom line: there are a lot of arguments in Garnetts favor, and not so many in Dirk's. Two-way elite big man without shortcomings vs elite one-way player. Whats more - there is NO GM who would pick Dirk over KG if they knew their careers, even Cuban would pick Garnett over Dirk.

And what are you basing this on? Do you have any evidence or proof that this is true?

We can agree to disagree. I'm not saying it isn't close, I just think that KG should be ahead. And it's not just because of offense/offense and defense/defense comparisons. The main thing that sets KG ahead of Dirk, imo, is that he didn't have any glaring weaknesses that needed to be addressed through personnel. He didn't need a Tyson Chandler. He's one of those special players who can flourish with any team.

That, to me, makes him more valuable than Dirk.

He wasn't a very good playoff performer and you can go check and his scoring and his scoring efficiency if you want proof. The playoffs/clutch is what ultimately separates Kobe from KG anyways cause if Kobe didn't have that advantage than I would suspect the majority would have KG over Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Assuming both their careers ended today, why do you have KG on top?

just curious as to why you think KG is better/ranked higher right now and last year too.

Because I think KG was a little better at his absolute peak and I really think KG could have done some special things if given the right help throughout his career.

But it's literally a flip the coin situation. Has been for me for a long time. I think Dirk will likely finish over him on my list simply because I think Dirk will continue to play at an elite level for longer.

[DMAVS41]

Good post.

Dirk is a better scorer, and is more clutch. However offense doesnt end with scoring - passing, screens and rebounding counts too, and in those areas KG is better, making TOTAL offensive impact close.

Then we have defense.... All-time great defensive player vs rather average defender. While I understand some fans dont value defense, but its what wins championships more often than not. Dirk couldnt win for a decade with offensively stacked team (Suns deja-vu), but once he got DPOY level big-man... The rest is history.

Then we have intangibles. KG installed his culture and attitude as soon as he came to a stored franchise, whats more - he inspired two other All-star HOF'ers to play defense too. Never before '08 Ray and Pierce were know as good defenders, now they are - and they admitted its because of Garnetts influence. Dirk is a great player, but he simply doesnt have such leadership.

Bottom line: there are a lot of arguments in Garnetts favor, and not so many in Dirk's. Two-way elite big man without shortcomings vs elite one-way player. Whats more - there is NO GM who would pick Dirk over KG if they knew their careers, even Cuban would pick Garnett over Dirk.

The bold is complete and total utter bullshit. Cuban picking KG over Dirk is laughable knowing how their careers played out.

All Cuban would do differently is not play run and gun up to 04, not hire Avery, and he would have found a way to get a legit center and a decent 2nd option and would have won 3 titles.

LOL @ Cuban taking KG over Dirk.....

[Harison]

And what are you basing this on? Do you have any evidence or proof that this is true?

What proof do you want over hypothetical situation? Its just common sense, no GM in his right mind would pick Dirk over KG.

He wasn't a very good playoff performer and you can go check and his scoring and his scoring efficiency if you want proof. The playoffs/clutch is what ultimately separates Kobe from KG anyways cause if Kobe didn't have that advantage than I would suspect the majority would have KG over Kobe.

Who isnt a good Playoff performer, KG? 27.0/15.7/5.2 looks good to me, or how he almost single-handedly dismantled a better Kings team with one of the best GM7 performances ever, or Championship with 20.4/10.5/3.3 with DPOY defense also looks great.

What concerns clutch moments, why people still believe in a myth Garnett isnt clutch? He was as clutch as Duncan during their primes, and KG was leading 4Q player on Celtics, ahead of Ray/Pierce, who are among the most clutch players in NBA.

[DMAVS41]

What proof do you want over hypothetical situation? Its just common sense, no GM in his right mind would pick Dirk over KG.



Who isnt a good Playoff performer, KG? 27.0/15.7/5.2 looks good to me, or how he almost single-handedly dismantled a better Kings team with one of the best GM7 performances ever, or Championship with 20.4/10.5/3.3 with DPOY defense also looks great.

What concerns clutch moments, why people still believe in a myth Garnett isnt clutch? He was as clutch as Duncan during their primes, and KG was leading 4Q player on Celtics, ahead of Ray/Pierce, who are among the most clutch players in NBA.

The way you say things like that is exactly the problem in these threads. It's so unreasonable to say such a thing after the last 14 years we've watched them play.

Just so biased its absurd.

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk vs malone isnt a total skillset thing. Its known i dont like malone and despite some peoples claims...i dont dislike dirk and have no reason to not want him on my team.

Plus him being a better total player depends on when you mean. Ive often said karl gets credit for being all he ever was at one time and he just wasnt. Dirk now is probably as good a passer as malone before he got old. Dirk in his youth was rebounding about like karl in his mvp days. He went a good while under 10 a game. And he was rarely as good a give him the ball and watch him work scorer as dirk.

Karl given credit for all he ever was is a lot hetter than dirk at any single point. But give them the same treatment? Its worth discussing.

[StateOfMind12]

What proof do you want over hypothetical situation? Its just common sense, no GM in his right mind would pick Dirk over KG.

I suggest that you don't speak upon every current GM and every GM that has ever worked as a GM that they would take KG over Dirk if you don't have any valid proof that 100% of them would take KG over Dirk.

Who isnt a good Playoff performer, KG? 27.0/15.7/5.2 looks good to me

So you are using one series to backup how KG was a good playoff performer, and the one series where KG lost? If you look at every post-season run KG had in his career, you would see that overall and the majority of his playoff runs and series aren't great. I'm not saying KG has never had a great playoff run or a great playoff series. I'm just saying overall and the majority of KG's playoff runs and series, he wasn't that great of a playoff performer.

or how he almost single-handedly dismantled a better Kings team with one of the best GM7 performances ever, or Championship with 20.4/10.5/3.3 with DPOY defense also looks great.

Kings were a better team?

I do think KG was great in that series but overall KG was not a great playoff performer, he was just a good playoff performer at best.

I have nothing against KG either, I love him actually, but this was an obvious flaw of his.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk vs malone isnt a total skillset thing. Its known i dont like malone. Plus him being a better total player depends on when you mean. Ive often said karl gets credit for being all he ever was at one time and he just wasnt. Dirk now is probably as good a passer as malone before he got old. Dirk in his youth was rebounding about like karl in his mvp days. He went a good while under 10 a game. And he was rarely as good a give him the ball and watch him work scorer as dirk.

Karl given credit for all he ever was is a lot hetter than dirk at any single point. But give them the same treatment? Its worth discussing.

And you aren't breaking it down the way people break it down for Dirk vs KG. Why? Because it doesn't make sense to do that.

Your post above is exactly what I'm talking about. It's just swept under the rug that Dirk often commands a double while KG never really did in the playoffs. It's swept under the rug that Dirk was a beast on the defensive boards pretty much his entire career.

How much is ft shooting late in close games worth? Or having the skill set to have an offense run through a player for not only a playoff game...but entire playoff series consistently coming through late?

Its more than just the boiled down simplistic comparisons.

It doesn't work and never will. It leads people to say things like Pippen was better than Magic and that KG is on a different tier than Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

What proof do you want over hypothetical situation? Its just common sense, no GM in his right mind would pick Dirk over KG.



Who isnt a good Playoff performer, KG? 27.0/15.7/5.2 looks good to me, or how he almost single-handedly dismantled a better Kings team with one of the best GM7 performances ever, or Championship with 20.4/10.5/3.3 with DPOY defense also looks great.

What concerns clutch moments, why people still believe in a myth Garnett isnt clutch? He was as clutch as Duncan during their primes, and KG was leading 4Q player on Celtics, ahead of Ray/Pierce, who are among the most clutch players in NBA.

Numbers in the playoffs?

How about these numbers:

26/10/3 58% TS vs 20/11/4 52% TS

But let me guess. Your numbers matter and mine don't...right?

[miles berg]

You cant just make a list for each guy and expect to decide it that way.

Look, this thing has been argued to death for the last 10 years and quite frankly it shouldnt. Both are all time greats, both are former MVP, both led teams to the Finals twice and to a championship once, and both are first ballot HOFers.

It just comes down to who you like more. Very similiar to Barkley -vs- Malone, it is just preference.

[Harison]

I suggest that you don't speak upon every current GM and every GM that has ever worked as a GM that they would take KG over Dirk if you don't have any valid proof that 100% of them would take KG over Dirk.

I'm using common sense, while you are making unreasonable demands (mildly speaking )

So you are using one series to backup how KG was a good playoff performer, and the one series where KG lost? If you look at every post-season run KG had in his career, you would see that overall and the majority of his playoff runs and series are sub par for an all-time great at least.

KG played in Playoffs better than in Regular season (yes, I watched, while you didnt, nor even checked the stats), and he lost to MUCH better team with prime Shaq and Kobe, while playing with scrubs himself.

How is that sub-par? You are making unreasonable demands, again.

Kings were a better team?

I do think KG was great in that series but overall KG was not a great playoff performer, he was just a good playoff performer at best.

Yes, Kings were absolutely better. And yes, you can think whatever YOU want, it doesnt change any facts.