Larry Bird closes out Jordan's Bulls (1987 playoffs)

[mehyaM24]

I think peak Jordan is slightly overvalued and peak Bird is slightly undervalued. But 'slightly' better defense? Are you serious?

Bird's biggest celebrity fan, Bill Simmons, admits he played in a weak era for SFs. When the athletic ones came around Bird's good defense at best got exposed. He cannot be compared to Jordan on that end of the floor. And I think Bird is an underrated defender.

what made bird's legacy so GREAT, was the fact he had to compete against moses, dr j, and magic. jordan's best competition was john stockton, karl malone and barkley (great players, but again, the 80s were a more difficult environment to be a dominant player in). people like to point out the bulls' titles ala "6/6" but they were just another playoff team in the 80s, while jordan was just 1-9 to start his playoff career.

if people researched they would understand that chicago didnt start winning until the great SUPER teams of the 80s - erving/malone's sixers, magic/kareem's lakers and bird's celtics - were aged and depleted - too old to compete.

“If Jordan's Bulls played in the 80's, they wouldn't have won six championships The 80's were the toughest era in NBA history”

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...in-nba-history

^ great article discussing what i am talking about. read the piece on "winning ability" and "era difference".

[T_L_P]

what made bird's legacy so GREAT, was the fact he had to compete against moses, dr j, and magic. jordan's best competition was john stockton, karl malone and barkley (great players, but again, the 80s were a more difficult environment to be a dominant player in). people like to point out the bulls' titles ala "6/6" but Bulls they were just another playoff team in the 80s, while jordan was just 1-9 to start his playoff career.

if people researched they would understand that chicago didnt start winning until the great SUPER teams of the 80s - erving/malone's sixers, magic/kareem's lakers and bird's celtics, were aged and depleted - too old to compete.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...in-nba-history

^ great article discussing what i am talking about. read the piece on "winning ability" and "era difference"

Maybe because's MJ's best teammates in the 80s were past-his-prime Gerving, Oakley, Paxon, and Orlando Woolridge.

That scenario kind of represents LeBron in the mid 2000s. Didn't win a title until Detroit were gone and Boston got old, and he joined a superteam to do it.

[KingPush]

how would you like me to prove it to you?

yes

[mehyaM24]

[/I]
i agree with this...

the 80's had only 20 teams for a most of the decade, and the Celtics, Lakers and Sixers are the most talented teams of all time.

no way the bulls win 6 in the 80's.

pretty certain they win 6 today though.... the talent is far more diluted, and both jordan and scottie's game would be enhanced under the current brand of basketball.

exactly. i see them winning somewhere half of that - which is GREAT. jordan and the bulls were one of the greatest dynasties ever, but their competition was somewhat meek - especially in the late 90s.

about winning 6 in today's game - that i am not sure of. i think the 96' team would have beaten last years spurs but no other bulls version beside them. the game is played different - more 3pt shooting, less spacing, better defensive principles etc. scottie pippen's team defense probably gets better but his man defense along with jordan's takes a step back because of the lack of handchecking and having to move your feet.

would be interesting though - like these quotes that are just fascinating with reference to larry's smarts and toughness:

Cooper: “He was the toughest in the sense that anytime Larry was on the floor, you had to be aware of his presence because he was going to make something good happen. I played against George Gervin, Andrew Toney, Dr. J., and Michael Jordan, some of the best players that have ever played this game, but Larry would have to be the best. You knew if Jordan had the ball, once he gave it up, you were okay with that. Larry could go get offensive rebounds. He could make a great pass. He was the ultimate offensive threat. Anytime he was on the offensive side of the floor you had to defend him. To me, that makes him the best I’ve ever played against.”

James Worthy: "Most players are one- or two-dimensional. Larry was ten-dimensional.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFnDzP8-hI

[mehyaM24]

Maybe because's MJ's best teammates in the 80s were past-his-prime Gerving, Oakley, Paxon, and Orlando Woolridge.

lebron did carry his teams into the ecf/finals though - BIG difference. he deserves a TON of credit for that. jordan (hate referencing this because it feels like im crapping on him), was just 1-9 in the playoffs to start his career. im not sure any other top 10 player has had worse success in the playoffs their first 3 or 4 seasons.

That scenario kind of represents LeBron in the mid 2000s. Didn't win a title until Detroit were gone and Boston got old

the cavs beat detroit in 2007 (who had homecourt), and took boston to 7 games in 2008 with a mediocre cast - i dont think its a stretch to presume they get past boston with another allstar caliber player alongside lebron.

[Hey Yo]

lebron did carry his teams into the ecf/finals though - BIG difference. he deserves a TON of credit for that. jordan (hate referencing this because it feels like im crapping on him), was just 1-9 in the playoffs to start his career. im not sure any other top 10 player has had worse success in the playoffs their first 3 or 4 seasons.


the cavs beat detroit in 2007 (who had homecourt), and took boston to 7 games in 2008 with a mediocre cast - i dont think its a stretch to presume they get past boston with another allstar caliber player alongside lebron.

[mehyaM24]

the dunk heard around the world:



and just for threads sake:

[AlphaWolf24]

how would you like me to prove it to you?


how you do you think i have insight on the game regarding footwork that you don't see anywhere else?... because i didn't learn all that footwork myself?... oh, i learned it.

Pics or GTFO!!


anyone can say " I played college/NBA"....without solid evidence you look like a turd.


( haven't you read the I'm Matt Gieger's son thread)

[3ball]

lebron did carry his teams into the ecf/finals though - BIG difference.

you're comparison indicates that you are one of those results-oriented guys that looks at a trust-fund baby whose parents gave him everything and who now has a 150k+ per year job, and you're like "wow, that guy's impressive."

then the guy that didn't have anything and grew up in the projects, but still managed to get to college and get like a 75k per year job - you're like, "yawn, unimpressive... doesn't compare to the trust fund baby."

that's what you are doing here with lebron and jordan - jordan's teams pre-1990 were not nearly as good as lebron's and he played much better competition.

you concede that the 80's boston celtics were one of the 3 most talented teams ever, yet you knock Jordan for losing to them when Charles Oakley, Sam Vincent, and Dave Corzine were Jordan's best options on his 80's teams.

btw, if you are going to be results-oriented, than why not compare Finals records - at least in that scenario, we know that BOTH players have good teams they are working with... using that more fair comparison: 6/6 is ALOT > better than... i'll let you fill in the blank..

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think peak Jordan is slightly overvalued and peak Bird is slightly undervalued. But 'slightly' better defense? Are you serious?

Bird's biggest celebrity fan, Bill Simmons, admits he played in a weak era for SFs. When the athletic ones came around Bird's good defense at best got exposed. He cannot be compared to Jordan on that end of the floor. And I think Bird is an underrated defender.

I can post plenty of Simmons' quotes that make you go (if you know about basketball and its history, at least)...

Weak era for small forwards?
Throughout the decade you had SF's such as Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Alex English, James Worthy, Marques Johnson, Mark Aguirre, Jamaal Wilkes, Paul Pressey, Orlando Woolridge, Purvis Short, Mike Mitchell, Rodney McCray, Dennis Rodman, Chris Mullin, Chuck Person, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniel, Kelly Tripucka, Eddie Johnson, Calvin Natt, Danny Vranes, Bill Hanzlik; players like Bobby Jones or Michel Cooper could play/guard the 3, got Pippen coming in, in the late 80's.
...
That's completely stacked like crazy, most likely the GOAT era for SF's (considering Bird too), lots of "variety" also.

Athletic ones?
-Dr J in the NBA before Bird even got there, and the same goes for his teammate Bobby Jones (very athletic player, all-time great defender who guarded Larry lots of times);
-King was a very good athlete before injuries, drafted in 1977;
-Marques Johnson was a pretty good athlete, in the league even before Bird also;
-Cooper guarded Bird lots of times, great athlete, all-time great defender, playing full-time since 1979-80;
-Woolridge, beast of an athlete, in the league since 1981;
-Aguirre was pretty athletic in his younger years, drafted in 1981;
-Worhy was the #1 pick in 1982;
-Nique drafted in 1982, in his prime since 1984-85;
-Pressey in the league since 1982, great athlete, great defender;
-McCray, a great defender, buff and athletic, in the league since 1983;
-McDaniel drafted in 1985;
-Rodman was drafted in 1986;
...
Shit, what about non-SF's that used to guard Bird plenty (or even that he guarded sometimes)... Dudes like Larry Nance, Drexler, Chambers, Kenny Walker, Moncrief, even Jordan... Made plenty look like complete fools, too.
(just scratching the surface...)

I'd like to know when the athletic ones came around, now?
Larry was guarded by many great athletes, different "types" of athletes, different positions too, plenty that were great defenders...

Exposed? In what manner?
Bird was never known for his on-ball perimeter defense, he was a great team defender though, one of the best. Celtics got MUCH better on defense when he came around, and were considerably better on that end while he was on the floor.
Plus, Bird was always more of a terrific all-around stretch 4, better suited to guard the post - pretty good there, m2m. He was "forced" to really play full-time SF (or listed as one) because McHale was coming into his own playing great, and they had no better options.
When Larry was younger/healthier he guarded SF's more and was better for it, before back troubles got "serious" (pre-1986) he more than held his own against those guys. After that he shouldn't even be guarding those really athletic SF's, on an island... He was older and not in perfect conditions (always more of a PF), McHale was a great defender better for it at that time, Bird was more impactful for them at roaming around and he had to be spared more for offense.

Oh, and those extremely athletic SF's? Bird was winning must matchups, Bird was considered the best forward - better yet, best player -Bird was winning rings, MVP's, tearing up the league... Not them, or not at the same level, not close.

[mehyaM24]

you're comparison indicates that you are one of those results-oriented guys that looks at a trust-fund baby whose parents gave him everything and who now has a 150k+ per year job, and you're like "wow, that guy's impressive."

truthfully everything needs perspective - this subject isn't any different. first of all, i do not think lebron can be used in this analogy because he was ANYTHING but a trust fund kid. in fact, his teams were so awful, a legit comparison would draw more parallels to a homeless boxer who came from nothing, becoming p4p one of the greatest to ever fight, drawing massive ppv ratings and such.

yes, lebron deserves credit for not ONLY taking his teams to the ecf/finals with BAD teammates, but doing so without homecourt.

you concede that the 80's boston celtics were one of the 3 most talented teams ever

true - but i also consider the 2008 celtics a superteam - one of the greatest modern era teams in nba history.

OTH, jordan with a so called "bad roster" never ONCE beat the celtics in the 2 postseason runs they went H2H (1986-1987).

people need to read between the lines, CAREFULLY - and comprehend what's being said here. its important to understand, lebron should be lauded for taking obsolete talent into the finals WITHOUT homecourt and to a game 7 semi finals (without homecourt) against a superteam - which brings me back to my original premise - something that i have ALWAYS stated here....lebron does more with less and has had LESS help than the listed, undisputed top 10 players of all time.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I can post plenty of Simmons' quotes that make you go (if you know about basketball and its history, at least)...

Weak era for small forwards?
Throughout the decade you had SF's such as Julius Erving, Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Alex English, James Worthy, Marques Johnson, Mark Aguirre, Jamaal Wilkes, Paul Pressey, Orlando Woolridge, Purvis Short, Mike Mitchell, Rodney McCray, Dennis Rodman, Chris Mullin, Chuck Person, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniel, Kelly Tripucka, Eddie Johnson, Calvin Natt, Danny Vranes, Bill Hanzlik; players like Bobby Jones or Michel Cooper could play/guard the 3, got Pippen coming in, in the late 80's.
...
That's completely stacked like crazy, most likely the GOAT era for SF's (considering Bird too), lots of "variety" also.

Athletic ones?
-Dr J in the NBA before Bird even got there, and the same goes for his teammate Bobby Jones (very athletic player, all-time great defender who guarded Larry lots of times);
-King was a very good athlete before injuries, drafted in 1977;
-Marques Johnson was a pretty good athlete, in the league even before Bird also;
-Cooper guarded Bird lots of times, great athlete, all-time great defender, playing full-time since 1979-80;
-Woolridge, beast of an athlete, in the league since 1981;
-Aguirre was pretty athletic in his younger years, drafted in 1981;
-Worhy was the #1 pick in 1982;
-Nique drafted in 1982, in his prime since 1984-85;
-Pressey in the league since 1982, great athlete, great defender;
-McCray, a great defender, buff and athletic, in the league since 1983;
-McDaniel drafted in 1985;
-Rodman was drafted in 1986;
...
Shit, what about non-SF's that used to guard Bird plenty (or even that he guarded sometimes)... Dudes like Larry Nance, Drexler, Chambers, Kenny Walker, Moncrief, even Jordan... Made plenty look like complete fools, too.
(just scratching the surface...)

I'd like to know when the athletic ones came around, now?
Larry was guarded by many great athletes, different "types" of athletes, different positions too, plenty that were great defenders...

Exposed? In what manner?
Bird was never known for his on-ball perimeter defense, he was a great team defender though, one of the best. Celtics got MUCH better on defense when he came around, and were considerably better on that end while he was on the floor.
Plus, Bird was always more of a terrific all-around stretch 4, better suited to guard the post - pretty good there, m2m. He was "forced" to really play full-time SF (or listed as one) because McHale was coming into his own playing great, and they had no better options.
When Larry was younger/healthier he guarded SF's more and was better for it, before back troubles got "serious" (pre-1986) he more than held his own against those guys. After that he shouldn't even be guarding those really athletic SF's, on an island... He was older and not in perfect conditions (always more of a PF), McHale was a great defender better for it at that time, Bird was more impactful for them at roaming around and he had to be spared more for offense.

Oh, and those extremely athletic SF's? Bird was winning must matchups, Bird was considered the best forward - better yet, best player -Bird was winning rings, MVP's, tearing up the league... Not them, or not at the same level, not close.

Educating the young masses, one past at a time. Good sh!t, my brother.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Educating the young masses, one past at a time. Good sh!t, my brother.

Thanks

And on that whole Bird vs Jordan subject... They both have top5 all-time peaks as overall players (along with Shaq, Kareem and Wilt), while Jordan probably has a slight better one and he's obviously better ranked on the all-time list (mostly because Bird dealt with career ending injuries also).

With that said, Larry won his titles in a tougher era, and more often than not Bird's Celtics were winning against Jordan's Bulls... Bird at his absolute best (pre-1988) while MJ was in his prime but not peak and didn't have quite as good of teammates as Bird during those years though, but Larry was also winning the "matchup" more often than the other way around.

[Anaximandro1]

so much bullshit ...

1987 ECFR - Celtics 3 vs Bulls 0

McHale 20.5 pt/8.3 rb/3.0 as/1.0 blk

Parish 16.7 pt/10.3 rb/1.7 as/2.7 blk

Johnson 19.3 pt/7.7 as/3.0 rb /1.7 stl

Ainge 17.0 pt/5.7 as/3.0 rb/1.3 stl

[3ball]

Mehyta... my *****...