Here's the production required for Lebron's 3 rings, compared to MJ's first 3

[Da_Realist]

Btw, I firmly believe LeBron is never passing Jordan. He already has fu*ked up too much and doesn't have that aura of invincibility that makes Jordan such a legend...

He's just not as good.

[Suguru101]

He's just not as good.

I know. His skill set is lacking a consistent mid-range shot. Still, it's annoying that this dude has to resort to altering LeBron's stats.

[plowking]

Can't blame Bron for not getting knocked out in first rounds, and not being able to pump up his stats in losses. Dude was making the finals by 22, something MJ couldn't.

[warriorfan]

Can't blame Bron for not getting knocked out in first rounds, and not being able to pump up his stats in losses. Dude was making the finals by 22, something MJ couldn't.

As you can see LeBron's entire career has been played in the lesser of the two conferences

Not only that, but he exacerbated the situation when he colluded with 2 of the top 5 players in the league1, not to mention they were all from the same conference! This further weakened the conference while strengthening LeBron's team at the same time


Win - Loss Differential Between Eastern and Western Conferences of the Past 18 Years



References:
1. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=413987

[TheWinningFam]

Season DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 107.6/96.9
Lebron: 106.3/92.2


Playoff DRtg/Pace

Jordan: 105.3/93.0
Lebron: 103.7/89.9
Jordan would be demarr deroazan in today's game.


That extra 1.6 points allowed per 100 possessions and extra 3.1 possessions per game in Jordan's era can easily provide 1.5-2 points extra and a bit higher TS% in the playoffs. It represents a roughly 5% inflation in stats.

Thus Lebron played in a tougher defensive era according to statistical evidence. Both stronger defenses (lower DRtg) and fewer possessions (lower pace).

[jlip]

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THRU 31 YEARS OLD

PLAYOFFS PER GAME

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER[/COLOR]

PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan:[COLOR="White"]I[/COLOR] 43.9 pts..[COLOR="White"]N[/COLOR] 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER[/COLOR]

FINALS PER GAME:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan Finals:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron Finals:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg[/COLOR]

MJ needed to score 25% MORE to achieve his 3 rings than Lebron did, [COLOR="darkGreen"]AND get equal or greater assists[/COLOR]...
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Not quite that simple... As a matter of fact when it comes to assists, it's not close...

MJ's '91-'93 championship load

34.6% of his team's pts... 16.5% of his team's rebounds... 29.6% of his team's assists

Lebron's '12, '13, '16 championship load

27.9% of his team's pts... 26.1% of his team's rebounds... 41.1% of his team's assists

I didn't do the blks and steals. I'm too lazy for that. Somebody else do that.

[warriorfan]

Not quite that simple... As a matter of fact when it comes to assists, it's not close...

MJ's '91-'93 championship load

34.6% of his team's pts... 16.5% of his team's rebounds... 29.6% of his team's assists

Lebron's '12, '13, '16 championship load

27.9% of his team's pts... 26.1% of his team's rebounds... 41.1% of his team's assists

I didn't do the blks and steals. I'm too lazy for that. Somebody else do that.

LeBron grabs uncontested defensive rebounds and plays hot potato, Jordan puts the ball in the hoop and wins the game

[3ball]

Not quite that simple... As a matter of fact when it comes to assists, it's not close...

MJ's '91-'93 championship load

34.6% of his team's pts... 16.5% of his team's rebounds... 29.6% of his team's assists

Lebron's '12, '13, '16 championship load

27.9% of his team's pts... 26.1% of his team's rebounds... 41.1% of his team's assists

I didn't do the blks and steals. I'm too lazy for that. Somebody else do that.

Jordan got equal assists per 100 possessions as Lebron, but Jordan's TEAM got more assists due to superior teamwork, so Jordan's assists were a lower proportion of his team's assists than Lebron's.

It's statistical fact that Lebron fosters inferior teamwork, since he lowers his teammates' APG, while Jordan increases them - Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all had higher APG before they joined Lebron than after, whereas Pippen had lower APG in 1994 than his years with Jordan:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...73&postcount=1

[TheWinningFam]

Jordan got equal assists per 100 possessions as Lebron, but Jordan's TEAM got more assists due to superior teamwork, so Jordan's assists were a lower proportion of his team's assists than Lebron's.

Jordan's TEAM achieving MORE assists than lebron's was due to having a superior supporting cast.

It's statistical fact that Lebron fosters inferior teamwork, since he lowers his teammates' APG, while Jordan increases them - Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all had higher APG before they joined Lebron than after, whereas Pippen had lower APG in 1994 than his years with Jordan:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...73&postcount=1

Kyrie,wade, are all score first players, not passers, their dropped assist rates were due to lebron taking over the passing responsibilities.

Think about it, Lebron has had to be his team's best scorer passer rebounder defender for his team to win, on top of that he has had to be the best of that for BOTH teams this past finals, jordan has never achieved this feat due to playing with a better supporting cast against weaker competition.

[Hey Yo]

Here's why MJ was able to score more/concentrate on offense.

The Bulls lost game 1 with MJ guarding Magic and here's what he said afterwards.

"It's tough to guard Magic and then go down and be expected to carry the load offensively," Jordan said following the series opener. "It's a challenge, but I have to do it."

"However, things changed in Game 2 when the Bulls discovered a new defensive stopper. Pippen switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.

"In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers.

Pippen’s stellar defensive effort altered the scope of the series and set the standard for teams searching for a taller, more athletic point guard to shut down opposing point guards.

During the regular season, Pippen gave the term “point forward” a new meaning after leading the team in assists and ranking second in scoring, rebounding and steals. Quite simply, Scottie did it all."



LeBron never had a teammate like that. He had to be Pippen and MJ rolled into one for the majority of the time in his last 5 straight postseasons and Finals appearances.

[jlip]

Jordan got equal assists per 100 possessions as Lebron, but Jordan's TEAM got more assists due to superior teamwork, so Jordan's assists were a lower proportion of his team's assists than Lebron's.

It's statistical fact that Lebron fosters inferior teamwork, since he lowers his teammates' APG, while Jordan increases them - Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all had higher APG before they joined Lebron than after, whereas Pippen had lower APG in 1994 than his years with Jordan:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...73&postcount=1

Nah. It's simple. The most inflated era for assists is 1980- 1993. That era is to assists what the 1960's was to rebounds. In terms of league averages, 1980-1993 had 12 of the top 15 seasons for assists per game.

[3ball]

Nah. It's simple. The most inflated era for assists is 1980- 1993. That era is to assists what the 1960's was to rebounds. In terms of league averages, 1980-1993 had 12 of the top 15 seasons for assists per game.

If you're saying that Jordan got equal assists due to faster pace - that isn't true - Jordan got equal assists [COLOR="DarkRed"]per 100 possessions[/COLOR] as Lebron (as shown in the OP).

Also, it's statistical fact that Lebron fosters inferior teamwork, since he lowers his teammates' APG, while Jordan increases them - Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all had higher APG before they joined Lebron than after, whereas Pippen had lower APG in 1994 than his years with Jordan:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...73&postcount=1

[nba_55]

3ball is getting beaten at his own game

[3ball]

Nah. It's simple. The most inflated era for assists is 1980- 1993. That era is to assists what the 1960's was to rebounds. In terms of league averages, 1980-1993 had 12 of the top 15 seasons for assists per game.

The most inflated era for 20 ppg perimeter scorers is 2005-2016.

That era is to perimeter scorers what the 1960's was to rebounds. In terms of 20 ppg scorers at the PG-SF positions, 2005-2016 has the most per season of any era.

For example, there were 11 PG-SF's with 20 ppg averages in 1996, compared to 22 in 2015.. This is a result of the legal hand-checking and lack of 3-point shooting/spacing before the 2005 rule changes, which the league stated were designed to increase penetration (ban hand-checking), thus free up shooters (spacing).
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[3ball]

But Jordan's Finals averages you say are 36.... which is only correct if you only take Jordan's first 3 Finals.

So you take LeBron's all 7 Finals.... but only take Jordan's first 3 Finals when he was in his prime? Wtf is this shit?

The OP shows the production required by Jordan and Lebron to win THREE rings since that's all Lebron has.. So Jordan's first 3 Finals is all that's needed to match Lebron's 3 rings.

Jordan had already matched Lebron's playoff achievements (3 rings, 3 FMVP's) in barely half the time (8 seasons, versus Lebron's 13).. Jordan also has the highest championship frequency in the post 1960's era (6/15, 40%).

Btw, I firmly believe LeBron is never passing Jordan. He already has fu*ked up too much and doesn't have that aura of invincibility that makes Jordan such a legend.... but you getting the numbers wrong or altering them on purpose is just dumb.

[COLOR="Blue"]The numbers aren't altered - I linked all of the stats below and in the OP - click on the names for the bballref data:[/COLOR]


THRU 31 YEARS OLD

PLAYOFFS PER GAME

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER[/COLOR]

PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan:[COLOR="White"]I[/COLOR] 43.9 pts..[COLOR="White"]N[/COLOR] 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER[/COLOR]

FINALS PER GAME:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan Finals:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron Finals:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg[/COLOR]

Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring with better efficiency than Lebron's 3 rings, [COLOR="DarkGreen"]while still getting equal or greater assists[/COLOR]...
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