Jordan vs Lebron; Who was better at making their teammates better?

[Fresh Kid]

Kukoc on the Bulls was better than Allen or Lewis were at any point on the Heat...
Did you even watch the Bulls?

Kukoc was a legit 20/5/5 player on any other team.

i thought we talkin' about b4 they joined bro

[plowking]

i thought we talkin' about b4 they joined bro

Its not going to be the same for players at the end of their careers who are 35 and 39 years old.

[ripthekik]

well, jordan made them hall of famers...what was wade before lebron? champion and finals mvp. bosh? franchise player top 10 in the league. allen? best shooter in the history of the game and champion. they were great players on their own merit. he did made some scrubs at cleveland look good tho (im lookin at ya jamison)

shiittee... killed it

[97 bulls]

How does this comparison even begin to make sense? Jordans Bulls and James Heat were formed in two totally different ways. Who knows what Wade and Bosh would be regarded as if they came into the league with an established player in James the way Jordan was. Hell Bosh is looked at as a joke now in spite of what he accomplished in Toronto.

Dennis Rodman had a great career before he joined the Bulls. Kukoc was the best player in Europe when he joined the Bulls. As well as an Olympic Silver medallist. And Scottie Pippen would've been a great player without Jordan.

Damn some of you guys are dumb

[sekachu]

Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, etc were all just rookies and nobodies?

Rodman and harper weren't at their prime when they joined the bulls beside kukoc

[pauk]

Lebron was better at that... but it didnt matter for Jordan, he sure won anyways, he was too good... as he said: "There is no i in team, but there is i in win"

A better argument here would be Jordan vs Kobe or something, two identical mindsets offensively. I hate comparing Lebron to Jordan, offensively he is more closer to Magic or at least Bird offensively, they were more towards that pass-first mindset, caring much more about involving everybody, moving the ball and trusting teammates every single time even in any clutch situation and ofcourse they had kindof better passing/playmaking skills.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kukoc was a legit 20/5/5 player on any other team.

My ass. In what universe? In '99, when he had everything to himself, he averaged 18.8 ppg (career high) but shot just 42% (and an abysmal 49% TS). Kukoc's peak scoring ability on any type of decent efficient was probably around 16-17 ppg. There are 5 players on the Heat (not including Lebron) who have averaged more than that for several full seasons in their careers.

[Andrei89]

How does this comparison even begin to make sense? Jordans Bulls and James Heat were formed in two totally different ways. Who knows what Wade and Bosh would be regarded as if they came into the league with an established player in James the way Jordan was. Hell Bosh is looked at as a joke now in spite of what he accomplished in Toronto.

Dennis Rodman had a great career before he joined the Bulls. Kukoc was the best player in Europe when he joined the Bulls. As well as an Olympic Silver medallist. And Scottie Pippen would've been a great player without Jordan.

Damn some of you guys are dumb

You take the bait. They say Lebrons teammates are better than Pippen, Kukoc and Dennis Rodman so they can diminish Lebron.

Haters gonna hate.

[Leftimage]

well, jordan made them hall of famers...what was wade before lebron? champion and finals mvp. bosh? franchise player top 10 in the league. allen? best shooter in the history of the game and champion. they were great players on their own merit. he did made some scrubs at cleveland look good tho (im lookin at ya jamison)

This post implies Pippen would not have been an all time great had he been drafted by another team. How do you know that for a fact? I'm willing to bet his stats would have been insane elsewhere.

Then there's Rodman - he was a high-profile add-on and already a beast when he joined the Bulls.

Who else from the Bulls double-threepeat is even noteworthy? Compared to the Lakers & Celtics dynasties, there were very few all-stars coming out of the 90s Bulls.

Pippen & Rodman were great players on their own merit. Phil Jackson was a great coach on his own merit. (see Lakers success). In reality, while Jordan may be the best individual player of all time, there is no evidence of him being a better teammate than Lebron (on and off-court).

In fact I'd argue the opposite is true.

FG% is a sensible figure to look at if you want to see how environmental changes have affected a player. Wade & Bosh are 53% over the past 2 seasons...

[pauk]

My ass. In what universe? In '99, when he had everything to himself, he averaged 18.8 ppg (career high) but shot just 42% (and an abysmal 49% TS). Kukoc's peak scoring ability on any type of decent efficient was probably around 16-17 ppg. There are 5 players on the Heat (not including Lebron) who have averaged more than that for several full seasons in their careers.

That chance didnt come at the best timing imo, not the "peak/prime Toni Kukoc" exactly being 30-31 and kindof injury proned, it was also the first time he was that #1 guy for a team in the NBA, in a lockout season... 19-7-5 was not bad, i think that season should just give you a better indication of what he could have been.... if it happened earlier...... and if he didnt end up somewhere else i still think he could have averaged next season at least 20 as he perhaps translated/developed better into that role & strategy...

Instead he got traded to PHI/ATL where he was not given anywhere close to such a chance, ATL did give him a small chance but only for 17 games....... where he averaged 20-6-6 @ 50% FG.... the next season ATL said **** you and let him rot in the bench, then Milwaukee let him rot in the bench until he retired........

He got his rings and its all good... Bulls success, sacrificing for team success bla bla bla.... but Kukoc's productions/stats were bottlenecked by Jordan/Pippen for perfectly logical reasons..... he could have easily been a 20+ 5+ 5+ player....

I have just seen too much of "Kukoc at his best", perhaps im a bit biased aswell..... before Kukoc entered the NBA i watched alot of live footage right here in my/his country, the "Euro-Magic" nickname (given before he entered the NBA) came for a reason as he dominated any position PG-SG-SF-PF-C over and over in Europe and was even argued at one point to be better than Drazen Petrovic in his prime (i dont agree with that, but thats how far it went), he was not gona be exactly that good against NBA competition... i know... but in the shadow of Jordan/Pippen, of the bench i did manage to see more than enough glimpses & outbursts of that 20-5-5 averaging potential to comfortably say ---> YES, i think Toni would have guaranteed averaged at least 20-5-5 if he was given a legit chance at his peak/prime... as a starter with 30+ mpg, as a 1st option... preferably if he could had that chance immediately he got in the NBA so he could faster develope/translate better & better into that kindof a player and maybe/perhaps more than just a 20-5-5 player, i believe he was that good & had that potential...

[OldSchoolBBall]

YES, i think Toni would have guaranteed averaged at least 20-5-5 if he was given a legit chance at his peak/prime... as a starter with 30+ mpg, as a 1st option...

You're welcome to believe what you want, but there is ZERO evidence that he was capable of such a thing on good efficiency. He tried at age 30 (which isn't ancient - it's right in the middle of most players' primes), and managed an abysmal scoring efficiency rate (42% FG/49% TS) on < 19 ppg.

[JUDGE WITNESS]

lebron obviously he is a point guard

[DukeDelonte13]

Lebron is soft with his teammates.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but he's a buddy-buddy fun loving type of teammate. He makes players better by taking attention off of them. He's a better passer than Jordan. He's not the type of guy to berate teammates during practices.



I don't profess to be a michael jordan expert, as I followed the cavs much more closely than the bulls, but it's my understanding that Jordan pushed his teammates to the brink and brought a ton of intensity to practices.

You could make arguments for both. Some players respond better to leadership like Jordan's, other respond better to Lebron's personality type.

[97 bulls]

You're welcome to believe what you want, but there is ZERO evidence that he was capable of such a thing on good efficiency. He tried at age 30 (which isn't ancient - it's right in the middle of most players' primes), and managed an abysmal scoring efficiency rate (42% FG/49% TS) on < 19 ppg.

How about his second season when he avgd 16/5/5 on 50% shooting in 30 minutes without Jordan? Which translates to 18/6/5 over 36 minutes of play. Or his short stint in Atlanta when he avg 20/6/6 on 49% shooting.

[TheMarkMadsen]

His first year in Cleveland was his best statistical year actually. And are you implying best statistically season equals best play of your career?

pretty sure that's what most people would say. Jordan is on record saying that his 89 season was his best, which just happens to be his most statistically dominant, some players may switch teams and be put into different roles that decrease their numbers, like KG from 07 to 08, the decrease in numbers doesn't mean KG was a worse player in 07 than in 08, that's where context comes into play.

**Mo Will was putting up 17/4/6 on 48% before he joined Lebron, are you honestly going to tell me that it was Lebron who "turned Mo Will into a legit 2nd option" which is what i was responding to originally, because it seems to me that Mo Will was ready to be a 2nd option a year before he even joined Lebrons team