Lies KB42PAH Told Us: The Myth of the 'Zone'

[DonDadda59]

So, I'm going through some of the threads here and every once in a while I run into someone spewing that a$$ clown's thoroughly debunked myths and trying to pass them off as facts. Call this a refresher course for those that need the extra tutoring.


Jordan vs Isolation Era Defense Props to Jordanhair.

“Kurt’s [Rambis] been pestering me for a year or so about doing some things defensively that I was reluctant to do,” Jackson said. “I come from the old school where you play man [defense], and you have that man and that’s your primary goal.”

-Phil Jackson, Fall 2008

"Thibodeau's (Boston assistant coach/defensive schemer) defensive scheme is a bug-free marriage of hardware and software. The programming is straight out of the Van Gundy manual: Keep the ball out of the paint, shrink the floor by overloading defenders to one side and try to contest every shot. Rarely does Thibodeau tweak the game plan by calling a variety of sets from the sideline. The Celtics are committed to their basic man-to-man principles , and when a certain approach isn't working, the staff's first adjustment is to demand greater effort."

-SI.com

Reluctantly, HOU coach Rick Adelman has had to play some zone defense in the last few games. But he makes it clear that he's not a supporter of zone:

“I never liked it. Sometimes it throws a team out of whack. I think it’s good to change up once in a while or take someone out of their comfort zone. I’ve always found, in the NBA especially, it kind of lets people off the hook as far as their responsibilities for defending. Now you’re telling them, ‘No, you’re just playing a spot.’ It lets people just stand around, instead of having responsibilities for their man and helping their teammates.”

-ESPN, 2008

The San Antonio Spurs' Game 5 victory over the New Jersey Nets in the NBA Finals is the result of a perfect marriage of technology, defense and bench play.

Spurs coach Greg Popovich has stated that he doesn't like the zone defense and that the only reason he employs it is because of his assistant coach P.J. Carlisemo. Apparently, Carlisemo's past as a former college coach makes him a proponent of the zone and he's forced the zone into the Spurs' repertoire during the Finals.

-ESPN, 2003

"It's starting to look like Saunders' team, too, judging by the faster ball and player movement in the Pistons' embryonic new offense ... and the expanded role for Darko Milicic ... and the sprinkles of zone defense seen throughout training camp so far.

They've been so open that Saunders waited only one day before running the proud Pistons through some zone concepts. He sees too much length, quickness and athleticism on Detroit's front line to resist the idea, even though he knows that the Pistons of [Larry] Brown vintage were adamant that real men don't zone."

-ESPN


So the mighty zone defense has been shunned by the best defensive coaches of this era. Their teams, like the great defensive teams of old, rely on real defense, namely manning up, doubling and trapping when necesary, and no cheap gimmick schemes of zone. So when you homers start the whole 'Jordan never faced zone' crap, just remember that the best defensive teams today don't even bother with it, they just play man w/o handchecking, no big man camping in the lane, etc. So consider that.

Still Not Convinced?

The game’s elite players did not embrace zone defenses when they were introduced to the N.B.A. in 2001. They saw them as an infringement on the purity of their professional game.

Shaquille O’Neal detested the concept. Kobe Bryant feared his drives to the basket would be hindered by clogged lanes. So did Vince Carter.

“Hated it,” Carter, of the Nets, said recently. “A lot of guys did. It just changed the style of the game, especially if you played years before that, like myself. I wasn’t too excited about it, but as the years have gone by, the old ways have passed us by. So, you adapt to what’s going on.”

But the effect of zone defenses, since they became legal in the 2001-2 season, has been noticeable only to the trained eye. The concept of guarding areas instead of players is used fleetingly. It is largely viewed as a gimmick to be avoided in a league in which nearly everyone agrees that each player should be held accountable for guarding his own man.

To the originators of the change, however, the game is more aesthetically pleasing than before it took effect, when coaches were taking advantage of complex illegal-defense rules that encouraged a stagnant game.

“The game had become heavily reliant on one-on-one and two-on-two basketball,” said Stu Jackson, the league’s executive vice president for basketball operations. “The game was not being played the way most experts felt it should be played and that a more free-flowing, up-tempo type of game should be showcased.”

Dismayed by the slowed game and sluggish scoring, the N.B.A.’s competition committee convened in Phoenix, looking to pick up the pace. Owners endorsed changes that trimmed the time allotted to move the ball to the frontcourt to 8 seconds from 10 and eliminated the illegal-defense rules.

“No one knew what illegal defense was,” said Jerry Colangelo, a former owner of the Suns who was the chairman of the committee. “It was kind of left to the eye of the beholder.”

Zone defense, widely used in high school and college basketball, was also introduced with a significant caveat. The committee instituted a three-second rule for defenders in order to prevent teams from parking taller players in the post. The goal was to free the lanes and encourage cuts and drives through the paint.

With those changes, among other factors, offenses have opened up, and scoring has climbed. Teams are averaging 99.7 points a game this season, up from 94.8 in 2000-1, the season before the new rules were introduced. Still, the zone defense has not been embraced in the N.B.A. It is mildly effective in spurts, but often dismissed.

“When you see it in the league, they do it because they can’t guard somebody,” Quentin Richardson of the Knicks said. “If they’re having a hard time stopping this person or that person or a team in general, and they can’t do anything, teams play zone.”

The laundry list of the zone’s shortcomings in the N.B.A. is relatively deep. Long-range shooters are truer in the N.B.A. than at any other level, and open shots are more easily found in the holes of zone defenses. N.B.A. players are better passers, so it is easier for them to whip the ball around the court to find the open man. Teams can grab offensive rebounds more effectively against a zone because opposing players have no set assignments on block-outs.

Then there’s the stigma.

Asked how much zone defense the Cavaliers used, Cleveland Coach Mike Brown said none.

“It almost says, Hey, we can’t guard these guys,” Brown said. “To a certain degree, psychologically, it makes you feel like you’re conceding, and it could be a downer if it doesn’t work.”

Beyond that, some say that N.B.A. coaches are hesitant to install a zone defense simply because they do not have a longstanding history with it or an encompassing knowledge of its intricacies.

“You still have a lot of coaches, general managers and assistant coaches that are old-school former players,” Lakers guard Derek Fisher said. “And the league is based on solid man-to-man principles. That’s how they were taught the game. That’s how they grew up playing the game. And it’s difficult trying to teach something that you don’t necessarily have a great feel for yourself.”

Earlier this season, the Denver Nuggets looked to add wrinkles to their defense, and briefly experimented with zone defenses.

“We practiced one for one week, and it was awful,” Nuggets Coach George Karl said.

The Nets, the Golden State Warriors and the Dallas Mavericks are among the teams incorporating zone defenses to throw offenses off their rhythm or to guard an inbounds pass.

“You spend time teaching your zone and cleaning up your zone,” Nets Coach Lawrence Frank said. “But unless you’re totally committed to zone, you’re not going to spend nearly as much time on zone as you do your man defense. There’s not enough time in the N.B.A. workweek.”

When a team switches to a zone, its opponent can become somewhat flustered. Most N.B.A. teams continue using the offense they would have used against a man-to-man defense.

The reason? If teams do not have enough time to practice a zone defense, they surely do not have time to introduce offenses to attack it.

“When teams do zone, offensively, we’re not ready for it,” Atlanta Hawks Coach Mike Woodson said. “That’s the crazy part behind it. Because you don’t see zone that much, when you do see it, you’re caught off guard.”

Karl said: “My zone offense is to put three guys on the court who can make 3s and have them make a couple.”

But for Jackson, the N.B.A. executive vice president, how much teams use the zone is irrelevant. The goal was to open the floor and encourage a more balanced game.

“Our game today is more five-man orientated,” Jackson said. “The game looks better. There’s not as much standing around.”

-'Subtly, Zone Defense Helps Open N.B.A. Game', NY Times 2/27/09

So please, stop the bullsh*t.

[Mikaiel]

It's sad how the guy mistakes help defense for zone defense. He spends a lot of time talking about basketball, but he doesn't even know the basic stuff.

[Showtime]

Uh, anybody who knows anything about the game knows this. Only agenda-driven lunatics like Alborz or ignorant "fans" keep up the myth of this "zone era" being the GOAT defensive era.

[bruceblitz]

You guys see the way I defend Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali, the reason for that is simple, sports fans have short memories, and yes, I admit, I spend too much time watching vintage sports, so it's fresh in my mind. I'm just a big sports fan, not a homer. You can't say the same for Alborz in wonderland. I'm just your normal every day fan, some people agree with my opinions, some disagree. That's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree. Not the least bit.

Alborz uses these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) so he can try to create false credibility around this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda he uses this to build his theories http://research.haifa.ac.il/~benzeev/excuses.htm and this: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diminish he has this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infatuation for Kobe and he's not a fan of the sport, he's not a fan of sports, he's just quite simply a Kobe stalker, people who fall for his psychotic views are: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gullible and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/naive to sum Alborz up, he lacks this: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/credibility . I feel bad for the ones who fall for his crap.

kb42pah's myths debunked:
-Jordan played against "shorter" players:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvX5Zy5Ms9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cV2_Cr8GNo

-Jordan faced single coverage his entire career:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

-Jordan faced weak defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

-Players weren't athletic in the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uc465y2tl4

-Jordan didn't face great defense in the Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc
(more coming)

-Jordan didn't face zone defenses, (Pat Riley makes fun of the Hawks for trying to use a 1-2-2 trapping zone defense in the early 90's, the Hawks weren't the only team. 1-2-2 aka box and 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOt5lavQIpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukEhjT16hMI
At the 5:45 mark listen to what Jordan says about getting EASY LOOKS against the zone defense

-Average teams in the MJ era didn't play great d:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7yBQ98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4
(more coming)

-Kobe faced an amazing innate zone defense in the 2008 Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME

-Jordan wouldn't be able to own Pierce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y

Jordan wouldn't be able to own KG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc

This guy reminds us of kb42pah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

kb42pah needs this guy to help him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcR7hr4LLQg

the real top 10 NBA players of all time:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho....php?p=2747391

effects of the rules changes:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2717202

Jordan's career compared to current stars:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/compa...rent_stars.htm

Jordan's career compared to the legends:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

kb42pah makes Mark Jackson seem like a professor.

[1~Gibson~1]

Why do yall even care about what that guy says. MJ > all whether he wants to admitt it or not.

[DonDadda59]

Why do yall even care about what that guy says. MJ > all whether he wants to admitt it or not.

Just trying to get the truth out, there's obviously some very misguided posters on this board who subscribe to his b.s.

[Disaprine]

i don't know whats worse now, kb42pah or people like you taking him seriously

[DonDadda59]

i don't know whats worse now, kb42pah or people like you taking him seriously

The problem is, I NEVER took him or anyone like him seriously. But many people share his misguided views, just doing a public service announcement.

[Glide2keva]

i don't know whats worse now, kb42pah or people like you taking him seriously

I don't think it's the posters in this thread that take dude seriously. I think posts like these are made to stop the lies being spread by some Kobe fans who never saw the NBA in the 80's and 90's that believe posters like kb42pah.

[Flamboyant]

It's sad how the guy mistakes help defense for zone defense. He spends a lot of time talking about basketball, but he doesn't even know the basic stuff.

That's actually the truest thing here.

But the fact is allowing zone, was indeed removing illegal defenses.
When defending superstars, double teaming is a much more effective defensive move, than hand-checking.

Lots of guys bring up how scoring went up when zone was introduced. But it was the role players that made that difference, not the superstars.

In 01', 8 players averaged over 25, them being:

1. Allen Iverson FG% .420 ppg 31.1
2. Jerry Stackhouse FG% .402 ppg 29.8
3. Shaquille O'Neal FG% .572 ppg 28.7
4. Kobe Bryant FG% .464 ppg 28.5
5. Vince Carter FG% .460 ppg 27.6
6. Chris Webber FG% .481 ppg 27.1
7. Tracy McGrady FG% .457 ppg 26.8
8. Paul Pierce FG% .454 ppg 25.3

But the following season, with the rule changes, only 2 of them (AI, Pierce) increased their ppg, both of whom having lower FG%.

Here are the stats from the following season:

1. Allen Iverson FG% .398 ppg 31.4
2. Jerry Stackhouse FG% .397 ppg 21.4
3. Shaquille O'Neal FG% .579 ppg 27.2
4. Kobe Bryant FG% .469 ppg 25.2
5. Vince Carter FG% .428 ppg 24.7
6. Chris Webber FG% .495 ppg 24.5
7. Tracy McGrady FG% .451 ppg 25.6
8. Paul Pierce FG% .442 ppg 26.1

To sum it up the reflection was:

Iverson -2.2%FG, +0.3ppg
Stackhouse -0.5%FG, -8.4ppg
Shaq +0.7%FG, -1.5ppg
Kobe +0.5%FG, -3.3ppg
Vince -3.2%FG, -2.9ppg
Webber +1.8%FG, -1.5ppg
TMac -0.6%FG, -1.2ppg
Pierce -1.2%FG, +0.8ppg

And even these numbers are a little flawed, because most of these guys had better FT shooting seasons, and more 3 pointers the following year(02).

Granted great players can adjust their games to any rule changes, but thinking that hand-checking is more effective than "zone" is idiotic.
Everyone claims that now people can go to the hole much easier, while it's obvious (and inarguable), that todays players are forced to take more jumpers.




BTW, just so that people know, while I go against the OP, I certainly agree that KB42PAH, has lots of BS in his videos.

Oh, and I didn't read the whole OP, but "Celtics are committed to their basic man-to-man principles?" "Shrinking the floor by overloading defenders to one side and trying to contest every shot" is something that became legal after the rule changes.
And the Celtics so many times run actual pure zone defense, and maybe are the only team in league history to use it effectively.

[amfirst]

Do u guys even know what you are reading? To sum it up, it basically says zone defense is made to stop individual superstars. It only makes the game more fast pace because u have to give up the ball and swing it around the weak side, typically the superstar would be on the strong side. Ball movement is better because to break zone down u have to pass the ball quick, thus, creating a face pace game and trust your team mates.

Individual game does not work as well, so basically u guys are agreeing that an individual player would have a harder time scoring. Therefore, MJ won't be as effective going in the paint. Zone is made to slow down SUPERSTARS who would normally slow down the game by going one on one. Hellooooo

Of course scoring would increase in a with more passing. Than going one on one like the older days.

[bruceblitz]

Dumars of the

[bruceblitz]

1999-00

[D-Rose]

Hey Bruce,

[amfirst]

All u have to do is watch Kobe in the post, hands are everywhere on him.