Gary Payton says Stockton was harder to guard than the GOAT

[Marchesk]

a flawless player would be the best at every aspect of the game. Give me an aspect of bball and I'll tell you a player who did it better than MJ.

Scoring. If you say Wilt, adjust for total possessions.

It's granted that Jordan can't be better than a big at rebounding or shot blocking. He's not going to best a good PG at assists.

As a shooting guard, what were Jordan's flaws? Not that he was perfect of course, but what stands out as his weaknesses?

[Legends66NBA7]

So that's why Payton can't win during the Jordan era, because Stockton torched him. Oh wait... Stockton didn't win anything.

Jordan averaged 31/8/4 on Payton for his career, and that includes the crummy Washington years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=paytoga01

Stockton averaged 14/3/10 on Payton for his career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=stockjo01

Ether...

He's just salty Jordan beat him twice.

It's like you guys are just convinced about OP's words that Payton was just spewing trash talk.

Again... Payton said the same thing about Stockton 3+ years before hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-cG7uUBYxo


Unless someone can find me a link citing someone else Payton found tougher to guard since his retirement, please show it. I don't see the problem here at all. There are plenty of players who have said Jordan's was their toughest match up, from Bruce Bowen to Jason Kidd.

[Marchesk]

Unless someone can find me a link citing someone else Payton found tougher to guard since his retirement, please show it. I don't see the problem here at all.

It sounds like Payton was saying it was impossible to get in Stocton's head and disrupt his game that way, but you could get MJ mad. I'm not sure Payton was saying that it was easier to hold Jordan below his average compared to Stocton.

But they were different players, and you don't worry about shutting Stocton down as a scoring threat. So maybe that aspect was harder for a great man defender like Payton.

[Legends66NBA7]

It sounds like Payton was saying it was impossible to get in Stocton's head and disrupt his game that way, but you could get MJ mad. I'm not sure Payton was saying that it was easier to hold Jordan below his average compared to Stocton.

But they were different players, and you don't worry about shutting Stocton down as a scoring threat. So maybe that aspect was harder for a great man defender like Payton.

True and if you check the video link he says Stockton even got under his skin to cause him to get a technical foul.

Stockton was a pest his whole career.

[Dragonyeuw]

There are plenty of players who have said Jordan's was their toughest match up, from Bruce Bowen to Jason Kidd.

Hell Ron Artest has said MJ was his toughest cover, and he would have only played the broken down Wizards version.

[alexd]

You must be thinking about Kobe, doe. We talking about MJ here. No one, not even GP, could get in his head. You can pull that shit with Kobe, but MJ didn't let anyone take him outta his game.

many players got in mj s head.reggie the pistons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOBTLAPHuiQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4ZlHwMstDc
when you make some1 start throwing punches then you know you are in his head

[Dro]

Most of the time when someone got Jordan mad or he perceived something as a challenge, like the Drexler comparison's, he usually comes out and murders the court. I'm not suprised GP said this. It probably kills him to give Jordan credit because everyone else already props MJ up as GOD anyway. To me, its more pride than anything and GP is the king trash talker.. Talk about context all you want, when I watch the games and I watch Jordan play, its hard to believe he's not the toughest matchup for anyone who's ever guarded him unless they only guarded him like once and he happened to not have a good game against them. If a guy is always getting 30 and winning most of the time, how is someone else a harder matchup, whom you've beaten and outplayed? When has GP ever outplayed MJ? Hard to believe for anybody who guarded him on a consistent basis that he's not the toughest player for them to guard. Like I said, its more ego and pride than anything or you just want to be different.

I dunno, I can see the head games. Hell Reggie got under Jordan's skin and Jordan has said that Dumars and Reggie were his toughest opponents on defense and offense respectably. But Jordan has played much superior offensive players than Reggie Miller. I dunno. I don't really believe any of these guys when it comes to these questions because there's too many possible factors to why they name a certain guy over another. Just like when Kobe chose to mention all the best players in the game today and didn't mention Lebron. There's always a little jealousy, dislike, envy, or whatever involved with these questions.

[TheReal Kendall]

I still believe GP is just talking out his ass.

As a bball player I would love to guard Stockton over MJ any and everyday of the week.

You not gonna get torched while guarding Stockton.

I'm a Stockton fan. I never really liked MJ but I respect what he did on the court.

GP talking bout he couldn't get in Stock's head but that to me doesn't mean he was harder to guard because at the end of the day basketball is about putting the ball in the hole and stopping that player from doing so.

If MJ averaged 31 on GP vs Stockton's 14 then you tell me who was harder for him.

I hate to say this but numbers don't lie

[Dragonyeuw]

I dunno, I can see the head games. Hell Reggie got under Jordan's skin and Jordan has said that Dumars and Reggie were his toughest opponents on defense and offense respectably. But Jordan has played much superior offensive players than Reggie Miller.

Reggie was in constant motion, coming off screens, and only needed a split second to get his shot off. Not surprising he'd be a tough cover, and then taking into account that not only are you chasing him all over the court, you need energy for the offensive side as well. I think Kobe said Reggie was a very tough cover in the 2000 finals, and he was like 35 at that point.

[Dro]

Reggie was in constant motion, coming off screens, and only needed a split second to get his shot off. Not surprising he'd be a tough cover, and then taking into account that not only are you chasing him all over the court, you need energy for the offensive side as well. I think Kobe said Reggie was a very tough cover in the 2000 finals, and he was like 35 at that point.

Yeah, I agree with you. Of course, I'm a big Reggie fan but its still tough for me to believe that Reggie was the toughest player for him to guard. I know Reggie makes people very tired from chasing him but Jordan is one of the most well-conditioned athletes of all time and rarely seemed to get tired. I'm guess Jordan just means other SG's who he was matched up with the most. I know Jordan has guarded Bird, Magic, Drexler, Isaiah, etc who are better offensive players than Reggie(Drexler may be up for debate) but they played different positions and he didn't guard them for the entire game. In that sense, I'd assume he'd consider Iverson one of his toughest covers also.

[Dro]

I still believe GP is just talking out his ass.

As a bball player I would love to guard Stockton over MJ any and everyday of the week.

You not gonna get torched while guarding Stockton.

I'm a Stockton fan. I never really liked MJ but I respect what he did on the court.

GP talking bout he couldn't get in Stock's head but that to me doesn't mean he was harder to guard because at the end of the day basketball is about putting the ball in the hole and stopping that player from doing so.

If MJ averaged 31 on GP vs Stockton's 14 then you tell me who was harder for him.

I hate to say this but numbers don't lie

I agree completely and thats what I was trying to get at. A guy averages 14 ppg against you and he's the toughest player you ever had to guard? There's probably plenty of other players other than MJ that were a tougher cover for GP more than Stockton but he probably doesn't want to give those guys credit either, maybe for pride and ego/trash talking reasons. I mean GP played against much better offensive PG's than John Stockton if we're talking about putting the ball in the basket, from Kevin Johnson to Tim Hardaway. He really thinks Stockton is tougher to guard than those guys? Of course not. Unless he's talking about playmaking then in which case it is hard to stop somebody from being a playmaker just like its hard to stop Magic or Lebron from being a playmaker. You may slow them down offensively but they will still make plays for teammates. But when we're talking toughest matchups, aren't we talking 1 on 1, preventing a guy from scoring?

[alexd]

Yeah, I agree with you. Of course, I'm a big Reggie fan but its still tough for me to believe that Reggie was the toughest player for him to guard. I know Reggie makes people very tired from chasing him but Jordan is one of the most well-conditioned athletes of all time and rarely seemed to get tired. I'm guess Jordan just means other SG's who he was matched up with the most. I know Jordan has guarded Bird, Magic, Drexler, Isaiah, etc who are better offensive players than Reggie(Drexler may be up for debate) but they played different positions and he didn't guard them for the entire game. In that sense, I'd assume he'd consider Iverson one of his toughest covers also.

being a better offensive player doesn t necessarily means that its harder to defend.its all about match ups.what i mean is that gp was a defensive juggernaut.He played defense through constant trash talking and hand checking.Its harder for him to guard some1 who just doesn t listen to him like stockton because part of gp s game is getting in his head and make him nervous.he could to it to mj but he couldn t do it to stockton so its harder match up for him.plus mj was taller easier to bother while dribbling.stocton is shorter with better handles.he was a floor general he could dominate a game by having 8-10-2.mj was a scorer not a facilitator so ofc he would have better stats than stockton.different roles different players.mj will be the goat but that doesn t mean he was the best at everything but it means he was very good at many things

[Dro]

being a better offensive player doesn t necessarily means that its harder to defend.its all about match ups.what i mean is that gp was a defensive juggernaut.He played defense through constant trash talking and hand checking.Its harder for him to guard some1 who just doesn t listen to him like stockton because part of gp s game is getting in his head and make him nervous.he could to it to mj but he couldn t do it to stockton so its harder match up for him.plus mj was taller easier to bother while dribbling.stocton is shorter with better handles.he was a floor general he could dominate a game by having 8-10-2.mj was a scorer not a facilitator so ofc he would have better stats than stockton.different roles different players.mj will be the goat but that doesn t mean he was the best at everything but it means he was very good at many things

I understand what you're saying and mostly agree with you. I think we have to go with GP's definition and reasoning of who's "tougher to guard". But I think if you were to ask the average person, who's tougher to guard, MJ or Stockton, most would say MJ even including Stockton's great playmaking abilities. Although MJ wasn't a "playmaker" he was capable of making plays of his teammates and he often times did. Thats why you couldn't just leave his teammates open to converge on him because he would find the Armstrong's and Paxson's of the world or could even dish it off to one of the many Bulls centers on his way to the basket. Also, if Jordan was off offensively which honestly wasn't too often, he could still dominate a game defensively and he still seemed to always have the same type of control over a game as a Stockton would despite Stockton being the PG.

[Legends66NBA7]

Payton keeps a consistent stance about a player for over 3 years but he's talking out of his ass ?

And I didn't even click those links about the numbers. This strengthens that Payton would find Stockton toughest, he played him many more times. 49 times in the regular season (although, in context, there are some games that one of them didn't play the same amount of minutes) and another 21 times in the playoffs (4 playoff series totals).

When has GP ever outplayed MJ?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...511260SEA.html

Just like when Kobe chose to mention all the best players in the game today and didn't mention Lebron.

When was this ?

He said in 2012 if he had to pick anybody to play with or start a team, he picked LeBron James.

[ralph_i_el]

Scoring. If you say Wilt, adjust for total possessions.

It's granted that Jordan can't be better than a big at rebounding or shot blocking. He's not going to best a good PG at assists.

As a shooting guard, what were Jordan's flaws? Not that he was perfect of course, but what stands out as his weaknesses?

Scoring is a little vague but I see where you're coming from and I agree that he probably is the greatest scorer. BUT there are plenty of better shooters, better ball handlers, and better finishers than Jordan. He's the GOAT because he was great at so many aspects of basketball that he combined with his will to win. I'm not saying he had weaknesses per se, just that he wasn't perfect. No player is

That being said, people elevate him to Bunyan-esque levels because of his championships. It's the same thing that happens to Kobe. We get lazy and just say "Jordan won 6 championships" so there's no way he could only have the same level of impact as a player with a Barkley-type career who didn't have that level of success. Basketball is a team sport and that's just not a good way to judge what players are the best on the court.




but on topic, just because MJ put up more points doesn't mean he was harder to guard. Defense is more than just stopping someone from beating you 1 on 1. Guarding Stockton seems like a completely different game than guarding MJ would be.