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Old 03-21-2008, 09:24 AM   #16
VCMVP1551
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Realist
I rank Hakeem over Shaq all time. Maybe not by much, but I think most people forget how good that guy really was. He dragged somebody named Mario Elie and Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell to the title. The next year he added an almost washed-up Clyde Drexler to the list. Not trying to disparage his supporting cast -- who were all good players -- but Hakeem didn't have the benefit of playing alongside a David Robinson or Penny Hardaway/Kobe Bryant/Dwayne Wade. During his title runs, Hakeem stood tall. And let's not forget that he helped the Rockets beat the mighty Los Angeles Lakers in 1986.

Yeah he had amazing title runs but you are underrating Drexler in 1995 because he averaged 21.4 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.8 spg 50.6 FG%, 35.6 3P%, 80.9 FT% after coming to Houston that year. Drexler that year played at a higher level than Kobe did in 1999-2000. Especially in the finals where Kobe had a miserable series in 1995 Drexler had a very good series.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

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Originally Posted by VCMVP1551
Yeah he had amazing title runs but you are underrating Drexler in 1995 because he averaged 21.4 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.8 spg 50.6 FG%, 35.6 3P%, 80.9 FT% after coming to Houston that year. Drexler that year played at a higher level than Kobe did in 1999-2000. Especially in the finals where Kobe had a miserable series in 1995 Drexler had a very good series.
however you want to rate him in comparison to shaq, i think that rockets team is a little underrated in terms of overall talent.

thorpe and mad max played great in 94 though their numbers were down because it was a total team effort and dream was the center of that. in 95 clyde was a great second banana and basically offset hardaway in the finals and helped hakeem offset the tandem of barkley and kj in the semis. i don't think i've ever seen a team with more clutch performers (maybe the 80s celts, lakes, and pistons, but they were incredibly stacked and didn't really play role players).

i'm not trying to downplay hakeem's contributions at all. i just don't want people thinking that a team that brought elie and cassell off the bench was lacking in total talent.
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Old 03-21-2008, 10:26 AM   #18
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

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Originally Posted by VCMVP1551
Yeah he had amazing title runs but you are underrating Drexler in 1995 because he averaged 21.4 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.8 spg 50.6 FG%, 35.6 3P%, 80.9 FT% after coming to Houston that year. Drexler that year played at a higher level than Kobe did in 1999-2000. Especially in the finals where Kobe had a miserable series in 1995 Drexler had a very good series.

Good point. Drexler was good as a second option that year. Less pressure, No double teams. And dejordan made a good point about how underrated those rocket teams were. BUT. Stack up the teams Hakeem carried against the teams that Shaq carried and you'll see the advantage goes to Lakers

--You can start off with a younger, more athletic Robert Horry vs the older version of the Lakers. Adv to Rockets here, but not by much.

--Kobe was a much better second option than Drexler (despite the stats),

--Phil Jackson and staff vs Rudy Tomjonavic and staff is no comparison,

--I believe the Laker role players throughout their run were better than the Rockets. Derek Fisher/Brian Shaw/Rick Fox/Horace Grant vs Vernon Maxwell/Mario Elie/Otis Thorpe is an advantage to the Lakers IMO
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:17 AM   #19
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

[quote=Da_Realist]Good point. Drexler was good as a second option that year. Less pressure, No double teams. And dejordan made a good point about how underrated those rocket teams were. BUT.

Quote:
Stack up the teams Hakeem carried against the teams that Shaq carried and you'll see the advantage goes to Lakers


I agree with that.

Quote:
--You can start off with a younger, more athletic Robert Horry vs the older version of the Lakers. Adv to Rockets here, but not by much.

Agreed

Quote:
--Kobe was a much better second option than Drexler (despite the stats),

If we are talking 2000 Kobe vs 1995 Drexler I disagree because Drexler was an older smarter player who scored pretty much as much but on much better shooting %, rebound a little more and Drexler could be counted on more at that point not to mention despite the assist stats I'd still say 1995 Drexler was a better passer than 2000 Kobe. Kobe was still young and as a result(along with an injury) he averaged just 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg on only 36.7% shooting in the 2000 Finals. Shaq had the whole load on himself and delivered with for my money the best series a big man ever had.... 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%.

Quote:
--Phil Jackson and staff vs Rudy Tomjonavic and staff is no comparison,

No argument there. Jackson/Tex Winter beats about any staff.

Quote:
--I believe the Laker role players throughout their run were better than the Rockets. Derek Fisher/Brian Shaw/Rick Fox/Horace Grant vs Vernon Maxwell/Mario Elie/Otis Thorpe is an advantage to the Lakers IMO

Yeah and you can't forget Glen Rice in 2000 averaging something like 15-16 ppg and easily one of the best pure shooters at the time.
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Realist
Good point. Drexler was good as a second option that year. Less pressure, No double teams. And dejordan made a good point about how underrated those rocket teams were. BUT. Stack up the teams Hakeem carried against the teams that Shaq carried and you'll see the advantage goes to Lakers

--You can start off with a younger, more athletic Robert Horry vs the older version of the Lakers. Adv to Rockets here, but not by much.

--Kobe was a much better second option than Drexler (despite the stats),

--Phil Jackson and staff vs Rudy Tomjonavic and staff is no comparison,

--I believe the Laker role players throughout their run were better than the Rockets. Derek Fisher/Brian Shaw/Rick Fox/Horace Grant vs Vernon Maxwell/Mario Elie/Otis Thorpe is an advantage to the Lakers IMO
i understand your point (and while i actually think a 1995 drexler was better than a 2000 kobe, if you factor in glen rice, it swings back in la's favor), but i'm not sure that's the best way to make it. only because competition level becomes a factor and that can really confuse things. were the suns, spurs, and jazz of the 90s as good as the spurs, kings, and blazers of the 2000s? in effect, did the lakers have to be a more talented squad in order to compete in a more talented league? that's a subjective question obviously.

i prefer to look at how much production a player actually gave and try to give it some context. but this particular comparison has been made a lot of times and gets some wildly differing opinions. personally i'd say of the centers i've seen play they stand alone (only saw kareem after he was 35, and just missed moses's prime - he was still good as a bullet and hawk but not the dominant force he had been). if i was building a team between 95 and 2005 to win one season, i'd take shaq top 5 every year, 1st pick from 99 - 2003. if i was building a team between 86 and 96 i'd take hakeem top 5 every year and he'd be my 1st pick in 94 & 95 (however factor out jordan and it's 93 - 96). very hard comparison for me and i flip flop on it, just like bird and magic.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

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Originally Posted by GOBB
I wonder how much him not being too tall/big and playing soccer helped him. Im assuming a great deal. Great hand and eye coordination, anticipation. Not to be a dyck tho, just not that impressed or surprised. Not sure of the word but this doesnt amaze me just because its something I appreciated when he played if that makes sense. Its the reason why folks incl myself rank him so highly during the 90's over a Shaq. I dunno.

soccer is why nash's footwork is off the charts too

anticipation was one of hakeems advantages over other big men-- he had a knack for knowing where the ball was going. i think it is partly God given skills but i think they were greatly developed beofre he ever picked up a basketball --- on the soccer field
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

Yeah, soccer most certainly helped Hakeem be the player he was, his footwork was amazing for a guy his size. He never looked clumsy, instead he always looked very in control.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:31 PM   #23
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

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Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
soccer is why nash's footwork is off the charts too

anticipation was one of hakeems advantages over other big men-- he had a knack for knowing where the ball was going. i think it is partly God given skills but i think they were greatly developed beofre he ever picked up a basketball --- on the soccer field


I'm thinking Ginobili picked up a few things from soccer too...
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainierBeachPoet
soccer is why nash's footwork is off the charts too

anticipation was one of hakeems advantages over other big men-- he had a knack for knowing where the ball was going. i think it is partly God given skills but i think they were greatly developed beofre he ever picked up a basketball --- on the soccer field
he played goalie, right? not much is going to build those anticipation skills any better than that. the spalding must have looking like it had a bullseye on it.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

I can attest to soccer helping with basketball because I've been playing soccer ever since I was 4 years old and my footwork is quite above average.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

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Originally Posted by VCMVP1551
If we are talking 2000 Kobe vs 1995 Drexler I disagree because Drexler was an older smarter player who scored pretty much as much but on much better shooting %, rebound a little more and Drexler could be counted on more at that point not to mention despite the assist stats I'd still say 1995 Drexler was a better passer than 2000 Kobe. Kobe was still young and as a result(along with an injury) he averaged just 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg on only 36.7% shooting in the 2000 Finals. Shaq had the whole load on himself and delivered with for my money the best series a big man ever had.... 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%.

I may just yield on this point, but I always felt like Kobe was a bigger focus on the Lakers team than Clyde was for Houston. And why aren't we talking about the whole playoffs in general? Shouldn't that also be included when determining which player had a bigger role in the title run? I hadn't had a chance to look, but what were the numbers throughout the playoffs?

You may end up being right anyway. Kobe is such a talented player that sometimes the beauty of his game makes one think he has a bigger impact than he actually does sometimes. So many times he'll put in what seems like a dominant performance only for me to notice he only shot 40%.
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:02 PM   #27
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
i understand your point (and while i actually think a 1995 drexler was better than a 2000 kobe, if you factor in glen rice, it swings back in la's favor), but i'm not sure that's the best way to make it. only because competition level becomes a factor and that can really confuse things. were the suns, spurs, and jazz of the 90s as good as the spurs, kings, and blazers of the 2000s? in effect, did the lakers have to be a more talented squad in order to compete in a more talented league? that's a subjective question obviously.

i prefer to look at how much production a player actually gave and try to give it some context. but this particular comparison has been made a lot of times and gets some wildly differing opinions. personally i'd say of the centers i've seen play they stand alone (only saw kareem after he was 35, and just missed moses's prime - he was still good as a bullet and hawk but not the dominant force he had been). if i was building a team between 95 and 2005 to win one season, i'd take shaq top 5 every year, 1st pick from 99 - 2003. if i was building a team between 86 and 96 i'd take hakeem top 5 every year and he'd be my 1st pick in 94 & 95 (however factor out jordan and it's 93 - 96). very hard comparison for me and i flip flop on it, just like bird and magic.

This is fair. And like I said, there isn't much to seperate the two. I just think people forget how good Olajuwon really was. It would have been nice to see the two face off in their primes. I think Shaq would have fouled out of 2 games trying to guard Hakeem but that's just my opinion.
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:02 PM   #28
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

I remember laughing out loud when a Raptor announcer said that Jamario Moon has a chance to break Hakeem's all time consecutive game block record.
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

The most skilled big man to ever play the game (sry Kareem).
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Old 03-21-2008, 01:12 PM   #30
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Default Re: Hakeem Olajuwon's blocks and steals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Realist
I may just yield on this point, but I always felt like Kobe was a bigger focus on the Lakers team than Clyde was for Houston. And why aren't we talking about the whole playoffs in general? Shouldn't that also be included when determining which player had a bigger role in the title run? I hadn't had a chance to look, but what were the numbers throughout the playoffs?

You may end up being right anyway. Kobe is such a talented player that sometimes the beauty of his game makes one think he has a bigger impact than he actually does sometimes. So many times he'll put in what seems like a dominant performance only for me to notice he only shot 40%.

I could agree Kobe was a bigger focus for the defense if we were talking about 2001 Kobe or 2002 Kobe. Even in the 2000 playoffs Kobe averaged like 21 or 22 ppg for the whole run compared to Shaq's 30 or 31 ppg. Drexler was in the low to mid 20's with better %, rebounds and probably assists in the playoffs. Back in 2000 Kobe was such a distant second option to Shaq because as good as Shaq was the majority of his career he was 10 times better in 1999-2000.
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