The case against Bill Russell as GOAT

[jlauber]

So your saying Russell only won because he had talented teammates?

- Boston had never even been to the Finals before Bill Russell. Despite having multiple HOF players and a HOF coach.

- During the 1962 season, Russell took himself out for 4 games and the Celtics lost 4 straight games even with Cousy, Sharman, the Joneses, Ramsey and other HoF's.

- In the 1969 season he took himself out for 5 games due to injury and Boston lost 5 straight games even with Hall of famers Jones, Hondo, Howell and Sanders

The occurrences that I mentioned are the worst losing streaks of the Russell-era Celtics. The latter is the worst losing streak of the Celtics since Red Auerbach took over the helm.

After he retired, Boston went from 48 wins to 34 and they didn't make the playoffs despite having several HOF players. An abysmal 14 game drop off. Compare that to Jordan who a lot of people consider the undisputed greatest and the most valuable player ever.

After Jordan retired in '93 the Bulls only had a only a 2 game drop off. (57 wins to 55). Hell, if it wasn't for one of them most controversial phantom foul calls ever, the Bulls would've been in the ECF. It would've been a huge blow to Jordan's prestige and importance seeing the team that he left behind reach the conference finals. And no the post-98 Bulls doesn't count since it was a virtual restructuring of the Bulls with Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Phil Jackson all going out.

And the modest 48 wins that the Celtics garnered during the '69 season is the lowest number of wins that the Celtics have during the Russell -era and occurred only because Russell spent a lot of time on the injured list and/or recovering.

Boston with an "All-Star" cast like that should be able to shake off his departure and continue the dynasty, but they couldn't.

He has 5 rings without Cousy and 5 without Hondo and 2 without coach Auerbach. 3 without KC and Heinsohn, 2 of which came as a player/coach.


Bill made HOF players out of his teammates. He had a good cast because he was the one making them look good. He was the one constant in Boston's dynasty.

Outstanding post!

[Pointguard]

IMO Kareem is the GOAT, but Russell also has a strong case. 11 rings and 5 MVPs speaks for its self.

Honestly assigning an arbitrary criteria that the top players must be an offensive threat is just naive. I guess this shows the prevailing stat hog mentality and double standards of today's fans. Magic averaged less than 20 PPG, is he worthy to be put in the top 10? John Stockton only averaged 13 PPG is he worthy to be included in the top 15-20?

You say Naive? I think that you eliminating Magic is naive. Bringing up Stockton is also Naive. They were primarily offensive players if you haven't noticed. You couldn't back up off of Stockton either. But to say guys with complete games (Duncan, Chamberlain, Hakeem) and similiar defensive games should concede that Russel is better is the argument.

People put way too much stock on an individuals scoring stats to determine their greatness, especially when such scoring stats (and stats in general) don't tell a complete picture of the player's contributions.

Read the whole post. Scoring is one item.

[97 bulls]

Because Magic was NOT a bad defender. Maybe not a great one, but the man was 6-8. He even led the NBA in steals a couple of years, too. And he was one of the best rebounding PG's in NBA history. And, when he got a defensive rebound, he was likely going coast-to-coast. Finally, he made his teammates much better, as well.

Magic WAS a bad defender. He got a lot of steals due to gamblng which put his defense out of position. I remember mychal thompson saying on the radio that magic was a bad defender.

[Papaya Petee]

You imply it by saying scoring is the most important aspect of basketball.

Yes, Carmello is better than Battier, so? You're bringing up a superstar player vs a borderline roleplayer.

Compare a star scorer to a player who plays great D' and still scores pretty well, and it's a more accurate comparison. Don't compare a superstar scorer to a guy who doesn't score much but plays good D'.

For example, Manu Ginobili vs Joe Johnson. JJ scores better, but Ginobili plays good D', leading many fans to rate Ginobili over JJ. Or a more fitting comparison, Ginobili vs Crawford. Both score really well and about the same PPG, but Ginobili blows him out of the water defensively, making him a far greater asset to have on the floor than Crawford is.

Yeah, too bad you're comparing basically even scorers. Johnson and Manu are. Russell isn't nowhere near the scorer that Jordan, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Kobe. etc. etc. are. However he has the defensive edge on his side.

Just like Battier is nowhere near the scorer is, and Carmelo is nowhere near the defender Battier is, who's the better player? Exactly.

[Pointguard]

Conclusion: The Reason for Russell's low PPG in the NBA was Russell was given very few opportunities to score (13 FGA)

Reason for Russell's low FG% in the NBA: The physical style of play of his era and the subsequent neglect of his offensive game to focus more on his defensive and rebounding role for the team.

Well said. It does speak of how much support he has in the same sweep. Nobody else in the top ten was a third and fourth option. So he's a different story.

[Pointguard]

Jordan has just as many accomplishments as Kareem does, and then some. And this is all with a weaker team, a lesser hall of fame player (Magic compared to Pippen), and with lesser 3rd/4th option players (Worthy/Cooper/McDoo compared to Rodman/Oakley/Kukoc) This is all for an organization that has never won a title before he came to town (way harder to bring a team that has never won a championship over the hump). This is all not considering that Kareem is at a more impact-full position (center) as far as playoff winning goes compared to Jordan's (guard).

Jordan also played way better defense on quicker, faster athletes. (See Gary Payton)

Ha!!! I thought I wrote this? Agreed!!!

[creamanshrimp]

if bill russel is the goat then ben wallace is the goat. ben wallace was a better player then russa

[SinJackal]

Yeah, too bad you're comparing basically even scorers. Johnson and Manu are. Russell isn't nowhere near the scorer that Jordan, Bird, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Kobe. etc. etc. are. However he has the defensive edge on his side.

Just like Battier is nowhere near the scorer is, and Carmelo is nowhere near the defender Battier is, who's the better player? Exactly.

JJ and Manu aren't even scorers unless you're talking about per minute. And regardless, even if they were "even scorers", it's a good example because the one who plays D' is better.

The point is that defense is clearly very important, and sets players apart from eachother. Again, Crawford vs Ginobili. Similar points per minute, and yet Ginobili blows him out of the water in impact because he plays great D'.

Obviously a superstar scorer with an all around game is better than an 8 PPG defender who's main purpose is just defense. Not a fair comparison.

Russel scored half as much as Wilt (overall), but as jlauber already said, held Wilt's scoring down when they played while doing his own thing. The points he takes away from Wilt should go towards his net total of scoring. Making a guy miss (for example) 3 shots more than usual drops the opposing team's scoring by 6 points total. In other words, his team would've needed 6 less points to win. . .as if he scored an 8 point basket for one of his FGs.

I realize that's a weird analogy, but that's basically the impact defense can have. That's why guys like Duncan, Howard, etc, are such important players. Putting the ball into the basket isn't the only way a player can put an impact on the game score.

[jlip]

The following is a list of quotes from players and coaches regarding how they saw Russell while he was playing. Keep in mind that these quotes were made DURING his career. They are not statements made 20 or 30 years after he retired by old guys trying to boost up the legacy of a player of their generation.

[I]

[ThaRegul8r]

[QUOTE=jlip]The following is a list of quotes from players and coaches regarding how they saw Russell while he was playing. Keep in mind that these quotes were made DURING his career. They are not statements made 20 or 30 years after he retired by old guys trying to boost up the legacy of a player of their generation.

[I]

[Pointguard]

However, Russell's true IMPACT was at the defensive end. And, unfortunately, we have no real way of measuring his overall impact. I can show you examples of him limiting Chamberlain's numbers. In Wilt's historic 61-62 season, he averaged 50.4 ppg on .506 shooting. In the regular season, and against Russell, he averaged 38 ppg on .471 shooting. But, even more importantly, in the playoffs, he held Wilt to 33 ppg. In Wilt's monumental '67 season, Chamberlain averaged 24.1 ppg on .683 shooting. In the regular season, he averaged 20.3 ppg on .549 shooting against Russell. In the post-season, in which Wilt played brilliantly, his numbers were still less... 21.6 ppg on .556 shooting. In Russell's last season, he held Wilt to 10.7 ppg in the Finals, in a year in which Chamberlain averaged 20.5.

In the video provided by ShaqAttack it wasn't great defense that always held Chamberlain down. Chamberlain aparently had head issues. I seen other videos of Chamberlain and I can't believe it was the same guy. Chamberlain looked like Gilligan on Gilligan's island in that video. In fact both of them looked very ordinary.

In 1980 the Professional Basketball Writers Association voted him as "The Greatest Player in the History of the NBA."

Why? What did Russell's peers and the media at the time see that, we can't some 30-40-50 years later?

BTW, the NBA Finals MVP Award is named in his honor.

He should be on the Logo. I love his team play and defense. No questions there.

[Pointguard]

In before Julbar and G.O.A.T rape this thread

I did it for GOAT. Neither one seem like rapist tho.

[jlauber]

In the video provided by ShaqAttack it wasn't great defense that always held Chamberlain down. Chamberlain aparently had head issues. I seen other videos of Chamberlain and I can't believe it was the same guy. Chamberlain looked like Gilligan on Gilligan's island in that video. In fact both of them looked very ordinary.
He should be on the Logo. I love his team play and defense. No questions there.

To be fair to Wilt, Chamberlain had his share of dominating performances against Russell. And Wilt, for whatever reasons, was held to a higher standard than any other player in the history of the game.

In fact, I won't take the time to look it up, but I believe it was in a video interview, but even Cousy made the comment that, had Wilt played with even one-third of the intensity that Russell did, that he would have been unstoppable.

And, in Wilt's finest season, in 66-67, he absolutely buried Russell and the Celtics. Had Wilt played that way his entire career, I have no doubt that he would have had five, or more, rings.

And, I will even add this... many, at the time, compared Wilt's play in the 71-72 season, to a prime Russell. I would agree, except to say that, he played BETTER, that season, than Russell ever did. He was an "efficient" Russell that season. And he was also as "clutch" as he had ever been. In the big games, particularly in the clinching game six of the WCF's, and against Kareem, and then in the clinching game five of the Finals, he was at his best.

[Pointguard]

So your saying Russell only won because he had talented teammates?

- Boston had never even been to the Finals before Bill Russell. Despite having multiple HOF players and a HOF coach.

- During the 1962 season, Russell took himself out for 4 games and the Celtics lost 4 straight games even with Cousy, Sharman, the Joneses, Ramsey and other HoF's.

I Have NO QUESTION in my mind that if Jordan had three other players on his team that could outscore him over the course of the year, there is no way he looses more than 7 games a year. If he has 3 other Hall of Famers maybe he looses 5 games a year. The title would not be a question.

Boston with an "All-Star" cast like that should be able to shake off his departure and continue the dynasty, but they couldn't.

Bill made HOF players out of his teammates. He had a good cast because he was the one making them look good. He was the one constant in Boston's dynasty.

It was a two way street. They made him look good as well. He didn't have the burden of worrying about scoring which is unlike anybody else mentioned for GOAT.

[ThaRegul8r]

I Have NO QUESTION in my mind that if Jordan had three other players on his team that could outscore him over the course of the year, there is no way he looses more than 7 games a year.

Never on earth would Jordan allow one