How much on the court value do you assign to being tough? Does it even count?

[Kblaze8855]

Im sitting here trying to decide who would be on my all tough/scrappy/whatever you wanna call it team. And it occoured to me that the all soft/flopper/backdown team might be better at basketball. Im not sure....but lets see who id come up with.....




Isiah Thomas is the starting point and if you are a big enough fan to be here you should know why. Cartwright, Barkley, Mahorn, Ewing, and Kevin Willis...Isiah would fight guys bigger than him just to prove a point.

Im gonna take Steve Blake as the backup. Im not sure if youre aware but...Steve was always ready to put hands on you. As he did his teammate in practice here:




And Faried:





Steve Blake will call you a ***** in front of your kids:











The starting #2 has to be Danny Ainge. I did a topic on his toughness once so I wont go all into it other than to say he nearly bit off Tree Rollins finger at the bottom of this pile:





And:







Backing him up I think I need Mad Max or Alvin Robertson. Alvin was tougher but Vernon was crazier.

I believe this is the game he told Kenny Smith he was gonna fight Jordan. Not because he did anything wrong...but because he was scoring too easily. He didnt like the ease with which Jordan was lighting him up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsmB4uYI0w


Not that it was the only time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtCsrrR82v8


^
Vernon flips out over some kinda soft fouls on Jordan.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITJQ7f9H6to

There he took out Drexler and cussed out some fans and his teammates.


https://youtu.be/YAyWPjD4EU4?t=120


^

Gary Payton tells the story of attempting to I guess...kill Vernon with a 10 pound weight...but he missed and hit Horace Grant.


Here he is strolling casually into the stands to steal on a fan:






Legend has it the fan made racial and other remarks about his recently passed away baby girl so....the NBA went light on him. He was only suspended 10 games. Someone heckles you about your dead daughter...I think we all give you a pass for going into the stands.



At the 3?

I could go Larry Bird....clearly the best player who fits the criteria. Or I could go Artest and Steven Jackson for extra crazy. For our purposes here...I think we have to go Artest and Jack right? I'll listen to arguments for Bird though. Bird had zeeeeeeeeero backdown. To make the best team? Has to be Bird. **** it...im playing Bird at the 3.

[Kblaze8855]

At the 4 im gonna start Charles Barkley and let his backup be Charles Oakley. You dont need those explained though ill let this scuffle between them do it anyway:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5tQN7Wvqac



Some might be tempted to say Karl Malone who I do consider a legit option....he did hurt people....







But isnt that more being dirty than tough? He wasnt just...throwing hands with people because he had no flex in him like Oakley. He was just cheap shotting people to me. Rodman was tough...but also a bit of a cheap shooter and a pretty wild flopper. Rodman was trying to get in your head. But he did play crazy physical. I dont know. I feel like I can put Rodman on the no backdown list to fill it out. If you get 19 rebounds a game at 6'7'' in a league that has a ton of great centers....im gonna say you need to be tough.



At the 5 im torn between a few options. I wanna say Laimbeer was toughest but he could also be the biggest ***** in the league crying and throwing temper tantrums. He also has some of the "Dirty...not tough" aspect like Malone. I'll give him the edge for now because he got in real...straight up fist fights. No shoving...Laimbeer made knuckle to face contact in like 80% of the fights he got into:







Who is his backup though?

Zo? Zo is a real option. Ask Scottie Pippens forehead:




Or anyone who tried the Heat in the 90s. Larry Johnson...Oakley...Rodman...

Yea im going with Zo.

Zo being better than Laimbeer...I feel a need to start him even if he was a little less of a goon.

So that leaves us something like:







Isiah/Blake
Ainge/Maxwell
Bird/Artest/Jackson
Barkley/Oakley/Rodman
Zo/Laimbeer


All soft/flopper team?

Chris Paul
Harden/Manu
Lebron(at least most of you would say so)
?
Vlade

Whats odd is you could put Laimbeer and Rodman on that team too for flopping...but not for softness. Like Lebron at times I guess. Not soft...play through contact...clearly physically capable...but will flop. Maybe all 3 have to come off the list but....ISH is putting Lebron on so ill just not have that fight. Plus ill never forget him falling 18 feet when Nazr shoved him. We have to come up with a 4. You might not remember him but...I might have to put Thurl Bailey at the 4. Good player....and not really a flopper just....sooooooooftTTT around the basket for his size. Tender as grandmas overnight roast. People mention Pau Gasoft but...no. He could rebound at least. You can only be so soft and get 11-12 rebounds a game in the NBA as Pau did at times. Thurl might be my pick but I welcome yours since only 10-15 people even know who Thurl Bailey was. So im going:


Chris Paul(competitor...but flopper)
Harden( )
Lebron(till a better option comes along...)
Thurl Bailey
Vlade Divac

Maybe put Kukoc as Lebrons backup...Manu off the bench(We stopped talking about it but Manu was the most notorious flopper in the world for a while)

I'll wait for your opinions on how to fill out the rosters but still...

Is it not possible the soft team is better?

SofT team has a pretty wild perimeter while the tough team shuts down the lane and gets all the rebounds....

When we finish these rosters I feel like the SofT team likely wins a modern game but the tough team wins a game before like...2008. Not as it is with the tough team being filled out with great players but....when/if we finish the soft team I feel like its gonna be pretty skilled just.....lame. And todays NBA rewards being a skilled ***** doesnt it?



But ive kinda left my point a couple chapters behind.

Do you count being tough as a basketball positive or more just...something to respect about the players competitive nature....without much use on the court?

[Shogon]

Of course it counts and of course it matters. Being extremely tough has the ability to shake guys on the opposing team and thus the outcome of the game.

What James Harden does isn't basketball. You can't compare the two, not really, but I will say...

Being intentionally dirty isn't basketball either, but it's a lot more respectable than purposefully trying to deceive the officials to gain an upper hand.

[elementally morale]

Mentally tough, yes. And being mentally tough is sometimes... well.. .not acting tough. You play to win. You need to focus. Sometimes it's good to act tough most of the time it isn't. Whatever the refs , the crowd or the opposing players do, you just keep playing your game. Okay, you may gesture occasionally but that's it.

[Kblaze8855]

What would you call Shaq?

Not only physically the greatest beast in history along with Wilt.....he played tough. He didnt mind you playing him tough in response so long as you didnt cry to refs when he hit you back. Shaq shut down the lane(we dont talk about it enough but....its crazy he didnt get dunked on on a straight up drive by a single guard...ever). But...

Hes among the most insecure greats of all time.

If you are tough as nails on the court but almost Durant soft off it....are you still tough overall?


Would anyone put Durant on the soft list just for his behavior?

[Shogon]

Being insecure isn't the same thing as being soft.

Shaq & Durant are both NBA Insecure First Team all time, but I wouldn't call either of them soft on the court. Nope.

They've both got that "I'm going to do my best to rip your heart out when it matters" dog in them.

[Kblaze8855]

Being insecure isn't the same thing as being soft.

Shaq & Durant are both First Insecure Team All NBA all time.

I feel like those two statements are in conflict.

[Shogon]

Nah.

Shaq & Durant weren't regularly flopping all over the court crying to the officials.

They go out there and compete at the highest level in the toughest moments and will give it their all and not back down to ANYONE for ANY reason.

But off the court? Yeah maybe off the court they're soft as hell. But not in the game.

It's not the same.

[Kblaze8855]

Shit know who I forgot? Tom Chambers.

Tom Chambers might be softer than Thurl. Also...Bargani(spelling? The Raptors top pick).

Where would you put Chris Bosh?

He played d but his comments on not wanting people to hustle near him(its dangerous) and admitting he didnt wanna go inside anymore and would rather shoot threes....those annoyed me.

Hes not soft as Chambers or Bargs though.

One of them gets the start over Thurl Bailey.

[Kblaze8855]

Local media on Tom Chambers:

THE SUNS' EMPTY CHAMBERS


Wednesday, May 1, 1991 at 4 a.m.

By Tom Fitzpatrick

Don't get me wrong. Don't sit there and assume I'm astonished that the Phoenix Suns pay Tom Chambers $2,060,000 a year for halfheartedly bouncing and throwing a round ball.

I'm not astonished by a salary that makes Chambers the most overpaid man in all of professional sports. I am amazed, astounded, dumbfounded and staggered. Come to think of it, I actually am surprised.

For some peculiar reason that puzzles me, it is considered bad form among the sporting media to mention the matter of how overpaid some players in the National Basketball Association have become.

Since I'm not a member in good standing, allow me to bring it up for discussion.


Does anyone really think Kevin Johnson is worth $1,750,000 a year? Should Xavier McDaniel get $1,400,000 or Jeff Hornacek get $1,100,000?

I don't mention Dan Majerle, who has just been raised over the million-dollar mark because he seems to me the one player on the team who might conceivably be worth that kind of money.

Next time you watch the Suns play, take a look at them huddled up before the game. This season's salary for the entire roster is $11,833,000.

Who are we all kidding here? Is this a group of young men that you can easily identify with?

But it is the Chambers-salary caper that points up where the money has become ridiculous. To cite the most extreme example, an ordinary performer like John Williams of the Cleveland Cavaliers is being paid $5,000,000 for this single season of play.

The way I see it, even if Chambers were engaged in successfully slam-dunking Kuwait's flaming oil wells, his current salary should be regarded as criminally excessive.

Here in Phoenix, which is a veritable Land of Enchantment for charlatans, only those engaged in selling land planned for freeway interchanges are generally so overpaid.

But for Jerry Colangelo to willingly spend that much of his stockholders' money for cybernetic and robotic Chambers was close to madness.

He could have done better buying bonds from Charles Keating. The Keating bonds, of course, turned out to be worthless.

So is Chambers.
He is great when things are going well. If the Suns are romping to an obvious victory, you can expect Chambers to hang around at midcourt and streak for easy passes from Kevin Johnson that will help him build up his scoring average.

The easy, uncontested basket is his way of life. But in the Utah Jazz series, Chambers has generally been matched up inside against players like Karl Malone.

They don't call the Utah power forward The Mailman for nothing. Every time Malone gets close to Chambers, he snatches the basketball away and stuffs it in his bag.

Every time Chambers makes a move, Malone reaches in and swats the ball from Chambers' hands and heads for a delivery in the opposite direction.

After a few of these traumatic episodes, Chambers loses his composure. He falls apart. He misses the long shots. He misses the lay-ups. He drops passes, throws the ball away.

The only shots you can expect him to make for the remainder of the time in a game like this are from the free-throw line. He becomes the two-million-dollar-a-year free-throw shooter.

Forget about Chambers ever making a clutch shot. Don't expect him to dive for loose balls. That's not his style. Men who make $2,060,000 a season don't do things that are so socially demeaning.

Lest we forget, Chambers pulled the same thing in the playoffs last season when Buck Williams of the Portland Trail Blazers kept stripping him of the ball inside.

That became obvious after KJ was injured and point production and enthusiasm from Chambers became imperative. He didn't come through then, and we shouldn't expect him to do so in the playoffs this year, either.

Colangelo must have thought Chambers was perfect for the Suns. The so-called drug scandal had just ended. Something had to be done to remove the terrible image the irresponsible indictments by the County Attorney's Office had been.

So Colangelo leaped at the opportunity to get Chambers from the Seattle SuperSonics as a free agent. He was, of course, far from being a free agent. He was pretty damned expensive.

Colangelo knew Chambers could score over a long season, and the fact that he was white was a major plus. Chambers' face would be great on billboards and television advertising. His was an innocent white face that could help bring white season ticketholders back into the fold. The ploy worked.

Dan Majerle fits the same mold. He is also white. The difference, however, is that Majerle is also one of the hardest-working players in the entire NBA. He never quits. He never gets flustered when the league's tough guys start working on him.

What I notice now about the local sports media is that they have all risen to Chambers' defense. Listen to announcers Al McCoy and Dick Van Arsdale the next time the Suns play. Notice how often they will point out that Chambers is "trying hard." Listen to them urge the fans not to heap abuse from their seats.

Listen to KTAR Radio, which is inextricably bound to the Suns' fortunes in the playoffs and hear Jude ("I am not a homer") LaCava moaning that fans are "being unfair to poor Tom Chambers."LaCava will be wrong on at least one count. Not by any stretch of the imagination can Tom Chambers be described as "poor."

Media doesnt go in on guys like that anymore.

[Shogon]

Some media members do... some media members have made entire careers out of it a la guys like Skip Bayless & Rob Parker. They're irrelevant losers that would be making significantly less money than they do without shitting on LeBron for his entire career.


But yeah, I'd say most don't... and the probable reason for that if I'm pulling a guess out of my ass would be... access...

Various forms of media is more in our face 24/7 nowadays so the reporters need to be in good with the players if they want consistent inside scoops.

[Kblaze8855]

Well yea we have professional haters now. The media was more journalistic back then but they had it in them to just shred you too. Skip himself was already a bit of a troll even then I believe. But for the most part.....guys today play nice.

The writers at least. On tv youre 100% right. They are there to say something insane for clicks and streams.

[Loco 50]

Gotta have at least one tough guy on the team to rally behind in my opinion. Spurs couldn't get shit done for years until they got Mario Elie. Didn't hurt that Tim Duncan came along at the same time, but Elie's attitude and Kersey/Perdue really helped make that championship happen.

When the Spurs were upset in the playoffs it came down to the other team's role players being tougher usually.

Stephen Jackson=championship
Malik Rose=championship
Matt Bonner=upset by lower seeds
Turkoglu=

Timid players can be more skilled, but unless they're Jordan/Curry/Durant skilled they can be overcome by lesser players.

[FKAri]

Being insecure isn't the same thing as being soft.

Shaq & Durant are both NBA Insecure First Team all time, but I wouldn't call either of them soft on the court. Nope.

They've both got that "I'm going to do my best to rip your heart out when it matters" dog in them.

Agreed.

Flopping and being soft aren't the same either. Bill Laimbeer was a huge flopper but I wouldn't call him soft.

[Kblaze8855]

If flopping doesnt make you soft must CP3 come off the soft list?