NBA Finals H2H: Ilt Chamberlain vs Willis Reed

[LAZERUSS]

#1 - regular season stats head to head vs. playoff stats. Russell's numbers all go up, Wilt's all go down...that is huge.

#2 - Wilt's record in the conference finals and beyond is 48-44, Russell's is 90-53. and Elimination games, Wilt 10-11, Russell 16-2.

#3 - A quote from Bill Bradley - "Wilt played the game as if he had to prove himself to someone who had never seen basketball. He pointed to his statistical achievements as specific measurements of his basketball ability, and they were; but to someone who knows basketball they are, if not irrelevant certainly nonessential. The point of the game is not how the individual does, but rather the team wins."


From Bill Bradley

"I have the impression that Wilt might have been more secure with losing. In defeat, after carefully covering himself with allusions to his accomplishments, he could be magnanimous."


From Butch Van Breda Kolf (who coached Wilt)

"The difference between Wilt and Russell was this: Russell would ask, what do I need to do to make my team mates better? Then he'd do it. Wilt honestly thought the best way for his team to win was for him to be in the best possible setting. He'd ask, What's the best situation for me?"

From Jerry Lucas

"Wilt was too consumed with records: being the first to lead the league in assists, or to set a record for field goal percentage. He'd accomplish one goal, then go on to another. Russell would only ask one question: "What can I do to make us win"

Jerry West summing it up best

"I don't want to rap Wilt because I believe only Russell was better, and I really respect what Wilt did. But I have to say, he wouldn't adjust to you, you had to adjust to him."

1. Wilt's playoff numbers against Russell declined slightly from his career regular season carpet-bombings of Russell, to just merely overwhelming Russell in their eight post-season H2H series. He just crushed Russell in scoring, rebounding, and FG% in EVERY one of their eight post-season H2H series.

2. Wilt carried pathetic rosters to the Conference Finals. In his rookie season, he took a LAST PLACE team to a 49-26 record, and past the Nats in the first round, and into the EDF's. And just murdered Russell in that series with a 31-27 .500 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .403.)

In his '62 season, he took essentially that SAME roster, now only older and worse, to a 49-31 record, and single-handedly took his team to a game seven, two point loss, against Russell's far superior 60-20 Celtics, in a series in which he averaged 33-27 against Russell.

In his '64 season, he carried a roster that had gone 31-49 the year before, to a 48-32 record. And in the WDF's, he single-handedly led them past a much more talented Hawks team, with a seven game series of 39-23 .559 FG% (in a post-season that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 FG%.) And in the Finals, he slaughtered Russell, and his EIGHT HOF teammates, to the tune of a 29-28 .517 FG% Finals...albeit, in a 4-1 series loss (but the last two games were decided in the waing seconds.)

In his '65 season, he took a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, without him, and missed the playoffs, to a 40-40 record, and a first round romp over Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals. And in the EDF's, he single-handedly carried that bottom-feeding roster to a game seven, one point loss, against a Celtic team that had gone 62-18, and was at it's apex of it's dynasty. And all Wilt could do in that series, was average 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shoot .555 from the field (in a post-season NBA that shot .429 overall.)

Of course, when he FINALLY had a supporting cast that was the equal of Russell's, he led the Sixers to a 68-13 record, and a blowout of the eight-time defending champions, in a series in which he obliterated Russell in every facet of the game.


Oh, and Wilt's record in elimination games was 12-11 (not 10-11), and here were his numbers...

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

[COLOR="DarkRed"]31.1 ppg[/COLOR] (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points (BTW, the ONLY three 50+ point games by a "GOAT" candidate in post-season history.)

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

BTW, that 31.1 ppg is just behind Lebron's 31.8 and MJ's 31.3 ppg in terms of GOAT scoring in "must-win" games.

Furthermore, here were Wilt's numbers in his 37 "must-win" and "series clinching" post-season games...

W-L : 24-13

Here were Wilt's averages in those 37 games:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]29.5 ppg[/COLOR]

26.1 rpg

4.2 apg (missing one game)

.546 FG% (in post-seasons that shot about .440 on average in that span.)

Keep in mind that 24 of those 37 games came after his "scoring seasons" (59-60 thru 65-66)

Using quotes from Jerry Lucas?



http://www.si.com/vault/1973/10/08/6...st-ejrry-aclsu

"Lucas gets the easy defensive rebounds," Boston Coach Tom Heinsohn scoffed two years ago. "He cheats by sloughing off his man. He gets 18 rebounds but his man gets 35 points." And Los Angeles' Jerry West said, "Lucas can't move and plays no defense. Forget the statistics."

As for Bradley's comments...how about those from his long-time teammate, and far greater player, Walt Frazier...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMvmsCqRAiI


And how about these quotes from Wilt's peers...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html

Jerry West...

"He was the most unbelievable center to ever play the game in terms of domination and intimidation. There's no one that's ever played the game better than Wilt Chamberlain. This was a man for all ages."

Bill Russell

"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakers...t-player-.html

Kareem

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

Larry Bird

http://www.nba.com/2012/history/feat...ime/index.html

When the topic of all-time greatest player was once raised, a fellow named Larry Bird didn't hesitate. "Let me tell you something," Bird said. "For a while, they were saying that I was the greatest. And before me, it was Magic who was the greatest. And then it's Michael's turn. But open up the record book and it will be obvious who the greatest is."

How about Rick Barry? In two separate interviews (one in the 70's, and the other in the last couple of years)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo

Next...

[LAZERUSS]

As for OP...

Yes, let's conveniently leave out the fact that Chamberlain was only four months removed from major knee surgery in that Finals. Or the fact that his 46-36 Lakers were under-dogs to a HOF-laden 60-22 Knicks team that had HCA (and needed a game seven to win the series.)


OK, in the first four games of the '70 Finals, a one-legged Wilt battled a much heathier (and peak) Reed to a DRAW. In those four games, the two teams split 2-2. And in the two Laker wins, Wilt held a shot-jacking Reed to 22-52 shooting (.423), while outrebounding him in those two games by a 49-27 margin.

And from that point on, in game's five thru seven...Wilt was the BEST player on the floor.

Reed missed game six, three quarters of game five (and they were down double-digits when he left with HIS injury), and nearly half of game seven. In those three games, Wilt outscored Reed by an 88-11 margin; outrebounded Reed by a 71-3 margin; and outshot Reed by a 39-55 to 4-10 margin (.709 to .400.)

For the series, all a one-legged Chamberlain could do was average 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shoot .625 from the field.

[LAZERUSS]

How about a HEALTHY Chamberlain, going up against a PEAK Reed just the season before ('68-69)?

Willis Reed vs Wilt in 2 regular season H2H's:

(Reed took over the center position after Bellamy was traded in mid-season)

Reed: 20.0 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, .459 FG%
Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 22.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .688 FG%.

Or how about a prime "scoring" Wilt against Reed in 12 regular season H2H's in the '64-65 season?

64-65.

Overall, here were the HOF centers numbers against the league:

Bellamy: 24.8 ppg, 14.6 rpg, and .509 FG%.
Russell: 14.1 ppg, 24.1 rpg (led league), 4.7 apg, and .438 FG%.
Reed: 19.5 ppg, 14.7 rpg, and a .432 FG%.

Nate (full season): 16.5 ppg, 18.1 rpg, .419 FG%.
Nate (as a starter- 40 games): 20.9 ppg 24.9 rpg (known 17 games), no known FG% games.

Wilt (with SF...38 games): 38.9 ppg, 23.5 rpg, 3.1 apg, .499 FG%.
Wilt (with Phil... 35 games): 30.1 ppg, 22.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, .528 FG%.
Wilt (full season ...73 games): 34.7 ppg, 22.9 prg, 3.4 apg, .510 FG%.

BTW, the NBA averaged 110.6 ppg on an eFG% of .426. And in the post-season, it averaged 113.7 ppg on an eFG% of .429.


Reed's stats vs the other HOF centers:

Thurmond in 3 H2H's: 9.7 ppg, no known rpg, and no known FG%s.
Russell in 9 H2H's: 19.7 ppg, 18.6 rpg, no known FG%'s.
Bellamy in 10 H2H's: 21.2 ppg, 17.0 rpg (3 known games) and no known FG%.
Wilt in 12 H2H's: 22.9 ppg, 17.0 rpg (2 known H2H's), .333 FG% (1 known game.).

Reed had games of 38 and 35 points against Wilt. His high game against Russell was 25 points. His high game against Nate was only 15 points. And his high game against Bellamy was 31.



Bellamy's stats vs. the other HOF centers:

Thurmond in 5 H2H's: 17.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg (3 known games), no known FG%'s.
Reed in 10 H2H's: 22.6 ppg, 14.0 rpg (only 1 known game), no known FG%'s.
Russell in 9 H2H's: 25.8 ppg, 15.8 rpg (5 known games), no known FG%'s.
Wilt in 9 H2H's: 26.3 ppg, 14.1 rpg (7 known games), no known FG%'s.

Bellamy's high scoring game against Russell was 45 points. He also had two other 32 point games against him. He had games of 30 and 31 points against Reed. He had a 30 point game against Nate (his next highest was 20.) And his high games against Wilt were 37, 33, 32, and 31 points.



Thurmond's stats against the other HOF centers:

Reed in 3 H2H's: 20.0 ppg, 30.0 rpg (1 known game), no known FG%'s.
Bellamy in 5 H2H's: 22.0 ppg, 29.7 rpg (3 known games), no known FG%'s.
Russell in 4 H2H's: 22.0 ppg, 22.7 rpg (3 known games), no known FG%'s.
Wilt in 3 H2H's: 18.7 ppg, 20.0 rpg (1 known game), no known FG%'s.

Thurmond had a monster 30-32 game against Bellamy, as well as another 28-37 game against him. He had a 21-30 game against Reed, and a high point game of 22 points against him. He had games of 26-20, 22-19, and 21-29 against Russell in their four H2H's. And against Wilt he had a 25-20 game.



Russell vs. the other HOF centers:

Nate in 4 H2H's: 12.0 ppg, 32.7 rpg (3 known games), .333 FG% (1 known)
Reed in 9 H2H's: 16.0 ppg, 21.1 rpg (8 known), .547 FG% (6 known games)
Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 12.9 ppg, 19.7 rpg, .475 FG% (5 known games.)
Wilt in 11 reg H2H's: 12.6 ppg, 22.2 rpg, 4.6 apg, .281 FG% (10 known)

Russell had games of 20-25, 22-30, 24-23, and 24-24 against Reed (and another with 38 rebounds.) Russell had one game against Nate of 20-41 (yes 41 rebounds.) He had games of 22-17 and 22-22 against Bellamy. And against Wilt, Russell's high point game was 18, and his high rebounding game was 27.

And continuing with the Laker H2H's for both Russell and Wilt:

Russell against LA in 10 reg H2H's: 15.9 ppg, 26.7 rpg, .436 FG% (9 known)
Russell vs. LA in 5 Finals games: 17.8 ppg, 25.0 rpg, .702 FG% (yes .702.)

Russell vs, Wilt in 7 EDF games:
15.6 ppg, 25.1 rpg, 6.7 apg, .447 FG%.

Russell's high point game in the EDF"s against Wilt was 22 points. His high rebounding game was 32.



Wilt vs. the other HOF centers:

Bellamy in 9 H2H's: 38.3 ppg, 21.7 rpg, .547 FG% (8 known games.)
Reed in 12 H2H's: 38.6 ppg, 21.2 rpg, .532 FG% (8 known games.)
Russell in 11 reg H2H's: 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, .473 FG%
Nate in 3 H2H's: 26.7 ppg, 26.3 rpg, .500 FG%.

Chamberlain had a horrible 7-21 FG/FGA game against Nate, but historically, that was an aberration. He also had a 34-26 game, on 13-20 FG/FGA against him, as well. Overall, in their 3 H2H's, Wilt held a 3-0 scoring margin, and a 1-0 margin in their only known rebounding H2H.

Wilt just shelled Reed in the majority of their 12 H2H's. He outscored him 11-1, including margins of 37-22, 29-12, 46-25, 52-23, 41-8, and 58-28. He also had rebounding games of 28, 32, and 32 against Reed.

Wilt continued his plastering of Bellamy, too. He held a 7-2 scoring margin edge, including margins of 51-33, 43-25, 56-37, 40-16, and 53-20. Chamberlain also held a 6-1 edge in their known rebounding H2H's, which included margins of 29-16, and 28-10.

The Chamberlain-Russell duels were continuing to become more-and-more one-sided, as well. In their 11 regular season H2H's, Chamberlain enjoyed a 10-1 scoring edge (and Russell's lone "win" was 11-8 in a game in which Wilt left injured.) Included were margins of 24-6, 31-7, and 37-16. Wilt also outrebounded Russell by an 8-3 margin, which included margins of 32-24, 26-17, 34-17, and 43-26. And again, look at Russell's known FG%... an unfathomable .281 in the known 10 of their 11 season H2H's (and in one game Russell shot an unbelievable 0-14!)!

And, Wilt vs. LA in 8 H2H games:

29.9 ppg, 22.4 rpg, and on a .476 FG%.

This was Wilt's worst season against the Lakers to date, but he still put up three 40+ games (with a high of 41 points.)

Wilt vs Russell in 7 EDF's games:

30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg, and a .555 eFG%.

Wilt outscored Russell in all 7 games, including margins of 30-15, 34-18, 30-12, 30-12, and 33-11. Chamberlain also held a 5-2 margin in rebounding H2H's in that post-season, including margins of 37-26, and 39-16.

Again...just total domination against four HOF centers.


So, as you can see, Thurmond averaged a near peak HIGH in ppg in that season. His scoring would drop slightly after that when the Warriors adeed rookie Rick Barry and also Jeff Mullins. In terms of pure athleticism...a PEAK Nate played from '65 thru '67. Injuries slowly took a toll after that.

As for his 73-74 season...he was in a state of severe decline. He only played in 65 games, and his overall production took a HUGE drop.

So, the reality was, a prime Nate played from '65 thru '73. And a PEAK Thurmond played from '65 thru '67. And as you and I both know, he came in second in the MVP balloting in the '67 season (and behind Chamberlain.)


BTW, here were Nate's and Wilt's H2H numbers from that '64-65 season, thru their six H2H's in the '65-66 season, and their first two H2H's in the 66-67 season...or first 14 games...

Nate: 16.1 ppg, 18.9 rpg, .356 FG% (4 known games)
Wilt: 28.2 ppg, 26.2 rpg, .514 FG%.

Chamberlain outscored Nate in those 14 games by a 13-1 margin, and outrebounded him by a 12-2 margin. And again, in those 14 games...SIX games of 30+ points, (30, 30, 33, 34, 38, and 45 points), including margins of 30-10, 33-17, 38-15, and 45-13.

Overall, and thru their first 24 h2H's, which covered the '67 Finals...Chamberlain enjoyed a 21-2-1 scoring margin, and an 18-5-1 rebounding margin.

[Asukal]

^ILt.

[warriorfan]

Ilt only knows L's and D's

[LAZERUSS]

^ILt.

MJ without rosters that could win 55+ games without him? A 1-9 playoff record. Never even won a game against Bird in his post-season career. Hell, Dumars owns a 3-1 series margin over Jordan in their playoff H2H's.

How about a prime KAJ in his 10 seasons before MAGIC arrived? TWO Finals, and ONE ring. Hell, he won a ring without playing a clinching game six in the Finals, and another in a Finals in which he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414 from the floor (and with a game seven of 4 pts, 3 rebs, 5 PFs, and on 2-7 shooting.)

Bird? Playing alongside HOF-laden rosters his entire career...THREE rings, and seven losses with HCA (and in most of those, subpar, to horrific performances.)

Hakeem?

EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS. Could never carry a team to more than 58 wins, and his two rings came in seasons in which the best player in the league took the year off, and then in the other, his teammates overcame a beatdown by Shaq to win the Finals.

Kobe? Arguably the worst Finals performer by a Top-10 player in NBA history.

Shaq? SWEPT SIX times in his post-season career (and nearly two more.) And without Kobe carrying his ass against the Spurs in '01 and '02, he wouldn't have won rings in either season.

[Asukal]

MJ without rosters that could win 55+ games without him? A 1-9 playoff record. Never even won a game against Bird in his post-season career. Hell, Dumars owns a 3-1 series margin over Jordan in their playoff H2H's.

How about a prime KAJ in his 10 seasons before MAGIC arrived? TWO Finals, and ONE ring. Hell, he won a ring without playing a clinching game six in the Finals, and another in a Finals in which he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414 from the floor (and with a game seven of 4 pts, 3 rebs, 5 PFs, and on 2-7 shooting.)

Bird? Playing alongside HOF-laden rosters his entire career...THREE rings, and seven losses with HCA (and in most of those, subpar, to horrific performances.)

Hakeem?

EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS. Could never carry a team to more than 58 wins, and his two rings came in seasons in which the best player in the league took the year off, and then in the other, his teammates overcame a beatdown by Shaq to win the Finals.

Kobe? Arguably the worst Finals performer by a Top-10 player in NBA history.

Shaq? SWEPT SIX times in his post-season career (and nearly two more.) And without Kobe carrying his ass against the Spurs in '01 and '02, he wouldn't have won rings in either season.

shhhhhh becoz..... ILt.

[LAZERUSS]

Ilt only knows L's and D's

Oh, and he OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK, too. In fact, he likely owns THOUSANDS of NBA RECORDS (including MANY in the post-season.)

[LAZERUSS]

shhhhhh becoz..... ILt.

Lord Chamberlain.

[Asukal]

Lord Chamberlain.

lord of losing?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Great thread.

[warriorfan]

Lord Chamberlain.

Ilt Chamberlain, Lord of the L's

[AirFederer]

Wilt even needed help to keep floating

[KG215]

1. Wilt's playoff numbers against Russell declined slightly from his career regular season carpet-bombings of Russell, to just merely overwhelming Russell in their eight post-season H2H series. He just crushed Russell in scoring, rebounding, and FG% in EVERY one of their eight post-season H2H series.

2. Wilt carried pathetic rosters to the Conference Finals. In his rookie season, he took a LAST PLACE team to a 49-26 record, and past the Nats in the first round, and into the EDF's. And just murdered Russell in that series with a 31-27 .500 FG% (in a post-season NBA that shot .403.)

In his '62 season, he took essentially that SAME roster, now only older and worse, to a 49-31 record, and single-handedly took his team to a game seven, two point loss, against Russell's far superior 60-20 Celtics, in a series in which he averaged 33-27 against Russell.

In his '64 season, he carried a roster that had gone 31-49 the year before, to a 48-32 record. And in the WDF's, he single-handedly led them past a much more talented Hawks team, with a seven game series of 39-23 .559 FG% (in a post-season that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 FG%.) And in the Finals, he slaughtered Russell, and his EIGHT HOF teammates, to the tune of a 29-28 .517 FG% Finals...albeit, in a 4-1 series loss (but the last two games were decided in the waing seconds.)

In his '65 season, he took a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, without him, and missed the playoffs, to a 40-40 record, and a first round romp over Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals. And in the EDF's, he single-handedly carried that bottom-feeding roster to a game seven, one point loss, against a Celtic team that had gone 62-18, and was at it's apex of it's dynasty. And all Wilt could do in that series, was average 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shoot .555 from the field (in a post-season NBA that shot .429 overall.)

Of course, when he FINALLY had a supporting cast that was the equal of Russell's, he led the Sixers to a 68-13 record, and a blowout of the eight-time defending champions, in a series in which he obliterated Russell in every facet of the game.


Oh, and Wilt's record in elimination games was 12-11 (not 10-11), and here were his numbers...



BTW, that 31.1 ppg is just behind Lebron's 31.8 and MJ's 31.3 ppg in terms of GOAT scoring in "must-win" games.

Furthermore, here were Wilt's numbers in his 37 "must-win" and "series clinching" post-season games...






Using quotes from Jerry Lucas?



http://www.si.com/vault/1973/10/08/6...st-ejrry-aclsu



As for Bradley's comments...how about those from his long-time teammate, and far greater player, Walt Frazier...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMvmsCqRAiI


And how about these quotes from Wilt's peers...

http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html

Jerry West...



Bill Russell



http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakers...t-player-.html

Kareem



Larry Bird

http://www.nba.com/2012/history/feat...ime/index.html




How about Rick Barry? In two separate interviews (one in the 70's, and the other in the last couple of years)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo

Next...

As for OP...

Yes, let's conveniently leave out the fact that Chamberlain was only four months removed from major knee surgery in that Finals. Or the fact that his 46-36 Lakers were under-dogs to a HOF-laden 60-22 Knicks team that had HCA (and needed a game seven to win the series.)


OK, in the first four games of the '70 Finals, a one-legged Wilt battled a much heathier (and peak) Reed to a DRAW. In those four games, the two teams split 2-2. And in the two Laker wins, Wilt held a shot-jacking Reed to 22-52 shooting (.423), while outrebounding him in those two games by a 49-27 margin.

And from that point on, in game's five thru seven...Wilt was the BEST player on the floor.

Reed missed game six, three quarters of game five (and they were down double-digits when he left with HIS injury), and nearly half of game seven. In those three games, Wilt outscored Reed by an 88-11 margin; outrebounded Reed by a 71-3 margin; and outshot Reed by a 39-55 to 4-10 margin (.709 to .400.)

For the series, all a one-legged Chamberlain could do was average 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shoot .625 from the field.

How about a HEALTHY Chamberlain, going up against a PEAK Reed just the season before ('68-69)?



Or how about a prime "scoring" Wilt against Reed in 12 regular season H2H's in the '64-65 season?

MJ without rosters that could win 55+ games without him? A 1-9 playoff record. Never even won a game against Bird in his post-season career. Hell, Dumars owns a 3-1 series margin over Jordan in their playoff H2H's.

How about a prime KAJ in his 10 seasons before MAGIC arrived? TWO Finals, and ONE ring. Hell, he won a ring without playing a clinching game six in the Finals, and another in a Finals in which he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .414 from the floor (and with a game seven of 4 pts, 3 rebs, 5 PFs, and on 2-7 shooting.)

Bird? Playing alongside HOF-laden rosters his entire career...THREE rings, and seven losses with HCA (and in most of those, subpar, to horrific performances.)

Hakeem?

EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS. Could never carry a team to more than 58 wins, and his two rings came in seasons in which the best player in the league took the year off, and then in the other, his teammates overcame a beatdown by Shaq to win the Finals.

Kobe? Arguably the worst Finals performer by a Top-10 player in NBA history.

Shaq? SWEPT SIX times in his post-season career (and nearly two more.) And without Kobe carrying his ass against the Spurs in '01 and '02, he wouldn't have won rings in either season.

Oh, and he OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK, too. In fact, he likely owns THOUSANDS of NBA RECORDS (including MANY in the post-season.)

Lord Chamberlain.

Can't believe it took until page two to start, but there's the jlauber/LAZERUSS meltdown.

[aj1987]

Lord Chamberlain.

True. L. Chamberlain.