Dwade to lebron is what Kobe was to shaq

[Money 23]

Yeah, this makes it appear close when you omit context.

Agreed. The context isn't the same, and Kobe fans always omit it.

Shaq was first option on offense, clearly. So when Kobe fans bring up his numbers in 2001 v.s. the Spurs it doesn't make sense to me. The weight isn't the same.

Shaq was the focus of the Spurs and Kings defense. Doesn't diminish what Kobe did ... it just isn't the same.

See Kobe's numbers in 2001 with just Eric Snow guarding him. Mind you, an argument made by HARDCORE Kobe stans that height and athleticism are more important on defense (thus MJ's superior numbers to Kobe) yet Kobe had all kinds of trouble with 6'2 Eric Snow and 6'3 Raja Bell guarding him.

The one time while Kobe was still "sidekick" to Shaq where he was actually paid attention to by a defense as first option was in the 2004 Finals. After Kobe's amazing performance in either game 1 or game 2 (where he hit the game tying 3 to send to OT) ... Brown shifted defensive focus to Kobe and gave Shaq ISO against Ben Wallace (where he had TREMENDOUS efficiency, btw)

The following result was baiting of Kobe to shoot and take over as number 1 option, and he was held to atrocious percentages, and basically shot LA out of the Finals.

Fact.

Kobe as alpha in the playoffs from 2006 on is what should be judged against Wade's 2005 playoffs - 2012 playoffs (sidekick). Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah, this makes it appear close when you omit context.

I would hope Kobe's numbers would be at least close to a guy that was doubled or tripled on every single play. If Kobe was the one who was doubled and tripled on every play and Shaq was the one who only had 1 or 0 defenders on him, imagine what the stats would look like then.

Kobe'tards need to just let this go already. Shaq and Kobe where never close.

He wasn't double or tripled team in every play.

Explain these 2 plays to me. Why was Shaq not tripled or double team in the most crucial moments?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVJWzN4dpPs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2tCu_mKUx8

[jrong]

Kobe as alpha in the playoffs from 2006 on is what should be judged against Wade's 2005 playoffs - 2012 playoffs (sidekick). Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

Wade wasn't a sidekick in the 2005 playoffs. He was in the process, in his second year, of leading the Heat, with a very badly hurt Shaq, to the Finals until he got hurt himself in Game 5 of the ECFs

The only year Wade has been a sidekick for an entire playoff run was 2012.

[Money 23]

Wade wasn't a sidekick in the 2005 playoffs.

Umm re-read. Where did I say 2005 Wade was sidekick?

I said compare Wade's 2005 - 2012 (his first year as sidekick) to Kobe's alpha career of 2006 - now.

By 2005 Wade was better than Shaq. It was ambiguous during the regular season between the two, by the playoffs there was no question Wade was their best player.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Agreed. The context isn't the same, and Kobe fans always omit it.

Shaq was first option on offense, clearly. So when Kobe fans bring up his numbers in 2001 v.s. the Spurs it doesn't make sense to me. The weight isn't the same.

Shaq was the focus of the Spurs and Kings defense. Doesn't diminish what Kobe did ... it just isn't the same.

See Kobe's numbers in 2001 with just Eric Snow guarding him. Mind you, an argument made by HARDCORE Kobe stans that height and athleticism are more important on defense (thus MJ's superior numbers to Kobe) yet Kobe had all kinds of trouble with 6'2 Eric Snow and 6'3 Raja Bell guarding him.

The one time while Kobe was still "sidekick" to Shaq where he was actually paid attention to by a defense as first option was in the 2004 Finals. After Kobe's amazing performance in either game 1 or game 2 (where he hit the game tying 3 to send to OT) ... Brown shifted defensive focus to Kobe and gave Shaq ISO against Ben Wallace (where he had TREMENDOUS efficiency, btw)

The following result was baiting of Kobe to shoot and take over as number 1 option, and he was held to atrocious percentages, and basically shot LA out of the Finals.

Fact.

Kobe as alpha in the playoffs from 2006 on is what should be judged against Wade's 2005 playoffs - 2012 playoffs (sidekick). Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

His 13 FGA totally shot them out of game 4. SO many shots man.

You are diminishing Kobe's 01 WCF, "it isn't the same" that is diminishing it.

[AlphaWolf24]

This song describes what my approach will be to the trolls in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL752-bVgLs





Shaq was their leading 4th quarter scorer in 2000. In 2001, neither had to do much in the 4th because they were blowing teams out pretty much every night during that playoff run. So this only really applies in 2002 as far as the title years. And Shaq did come up big late in games 6 and 7 when they were facing elimination.

Shaq didn't sit on the bench either much. This makes me question how much you watched those teams. You're applying things only relevant to old Shaq to prime Shaq.

2000 Title doesn't even happen if not for Kobe Dominating the 4th quarter of game 7.....yes Shaq was the better post season overall player....

in 2001 Kobe was far and away the best Crunchtime player / all round player...yes they had a great post season run....and Shaq didn't have to score much in the 4th because of the Lakers excellent play.....Much Like Kobe didn't have to extend himself in the NBA Finals against weaker EC teams..Shaq also found himself in foul trouble quite often....and with his inability at the Freethrow line....It was Kobe who had to make up for Shaq's liability.



Shaq missed a total of 26 games during the 3peat. 4 due to suspension, and 1 for his graduation...which they lost to Vancouver without him. Kobe missed a total of 32 regular season games and 1 playoff game.


1997 - Missed 31 games

1998 - Mised 25 games

2002 - Missed 16 games

2003 - Missed 15 games

2004 - Missed 15 games

5 outta 7 seasons he missed double digit games...



Neither do you...as usual.



No.



2001 and 2002 Lakers without Kobe: 13-3 record
2001 and 2002 Lakers without Shaq: 12-11 record

Plus, Phil didn't openly fantasize about benching Shaq in 2001 like he did with Kobe.


23 games in 02' is all your clinging too?...your proof?
R U still stuck in Kobe needed Shaq?....psst...so 2005.

Shaq needed Kobe far more then vice versa....Kobe's career without Shaq is still a top 10 career...and Kobe still dominated to a greater level without Shaq.

Shaq never even sniffed the same sucess without Kobe to bail him out...

and Tex Winter didn't destroy Kobe's ego and tell Kobe how much he destroyed team chemistry and how his awful FT shooting was such a liabilty.

In fact out of all the players Tex Winter has coached....he never said Kobe was the worst.

PS: Phil came back and teh Lakers went to 3 straight Finals.....without the most Dominate player...he was replaced by a soft Euro



If '03 Shaq was washed up, then what does that say about Kobe considering Shaq was still arguably better?

no one who watched the Lakers in 03' thought Shaq was better...Kobe was unstoppable that year.


Wait, what? They played in '99 before Shaq even won a title. And Shaq's Lakers won the '01, '02 and '04 series. Overall, Shaq and Duncan were 3-3 in playoff series against each other including Shaq's series with Phoenix.



Ironic considering you started the trollfest.



Proves you didn't watch '08 Wade if you didn't think he was extremely limited. Look at pre-injury '07 Wade or '09-'11 Wade vs '08 Wade. Hell, current Wade easily looks better than '08 Wade.

I did watch .....and it was clear as day he tanked



Well, Kobe makes someone in this thread "all tingly down there", but it's not him.



yeah.....and????......can you really blame me?



Yeah, I don't disagree. I'd say the difference between Bosh and the Lakers 3rd guy on any teams was easily the greatest difference, though.

- can't really debate this subject with SA...I was here during the Kobe - Shaq era....I watched all the games....I know for a fact you don't get KCAL 9 in canada or wherever you from.

[tmacattack33]

He wasn't double or tripled team in every play.

Explain these 2 plays to me. Why was Shaq not tripled or double team in the most crucial moments?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVJWzN4dpPs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2tCu_mKUx8

Did you really just use 2 plays as evidence that Shaq didn't get double teamed over his 7 or however many seasons in LA?

LOL.

Also, in the first one, Shaq didn't even have the ball. You usually don't get double teamed when you don't have the ball.

And I didn't even watch the second one, so i have nothing to say about it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

2000 Title doesn't even happen if not for Kobe Dominating the 4th quarter of game 7.....yes Shaq was the better post season overall player....

When did I say they would have won in 2000 without Kobe? By the way, you have to acknowledge Shaq's role in the comeback as well. He had really struggled through 3, but had an excellent 4th quarter himself.

in 2001 Kobe was far and away the best Crunchtime player / all round player...yes they had a great post season run....and Shaq didn't have to score much in the 4th because of the Lakers excellent play.....Much Like Kobe didn't have to extend himself in the NBA Finals against weaker EC teams..Shaq also found himself in foul trouble quite often....and with his inability at the Freethrow line....It was Kobe who had to make up for Shaq's liability.

Much of this is so one-sided, and some of it is flat out untrue.

1997 - Missed 31 games

1998 - Mised 25 games

2002 - Missed 16 games

2003 - Missed 15 games

2004 - Missed 15 games

5 outta 7 seasons he missed double digit games...

I was referring to the 3peat. And you mean 5 out of 8 seasons.

By the way, Kobe missed more games than Shaq in 2004(17) He missed double digit games 3 out of the 5 years of the Shaq/Kobe/Phil era, same as Shaq. Or 3 out of the 6 years he started with Shaq, which is also the same as Shaq.

You realize that for their entire 8 years together, Shaq missed double digit games in 5 of those seasons, but Kobe missed double digit games in 4.

23 games in 02' is all your clinging too?...your proof?
R U still stuck in Kobe needed Shaq?....psst...so 2005.

I never said either player needed each other. But at least I back up my assertion that Shaq was the better those years with evidence from those years.

Shaq needed Kobe far more then vice versa....Kobe's career without Shaq is still a top 10 career...and Kobe still dominated to a greater level without Shaq.

Shaq never even sniffed the same sucess without Kobe to bail him out...

No, he didn't need Kobe more. He just happened to play with Kobe from age 25-32, in other words, his entire prime and then some. A lot different starting your post Kobe career at 33, then Kobe starting his post-Shaq career at 26.

But if you want to play this game, 34 year old Shaq who was clearly past his prime won a title with Wade.

and Tex Winter didn't destroy Kobe's ego and tell Kobe how much he destroyed team chemistry and how his awful FT shooting was such a liabilty.

In fact out of all the players Tex Winter has coached....he never said Kobe was the worst.

When did Tex destroy Shaq's ego? Whatever that means.

PS: Phil came back and teh Lakers went to 3 straight Finals.....without the most Dominate player...he was replaced by a soft Euro

He wasn't replaced by Gasol. It was a completely different team. Odom was far better than any 3rd guy the 2000-2002 Lakers had. They also had better small forwards with Ariza in '09 and Artest in '10, and Bynum was a factor in 2010.

no one who watched the Lakers in 03' thought Shaq was better...Kobe was unstoppable that year.

Many still considered Shaq the best in the game. Kobe definitely had the better regular season, but Shaq was better in the playoffs and probably still the more valuable player if your goal is to win a title. But at least you can make a case for either player that year.

I did watch .....and it was clear as day he tanked

Clear as day that he wasn't healthy.

can't really debate this subject with SA...I was here during the Kobe - Shaq era....I watched all the games....I know for a fact you don't get KCAL 9 in canada or wherever you from.

I didn't need the Lakers network, they've had countless games on National Television for years, plus the games they play against the Knicks and Nets.

You're right that you can't debate this with me, but that's not why. It's because you trying to debate this with me is like Muggsy Bogues trying to guard Shaq.

[Money 23]

His 13 FGA totally shot them out of game 4.

What about the rest of the games? You seriously insinuating Kobe didn't take the defensive assignment of Prince and his quality defense on him and Brown focusing the team defense on him after his clutch performance personally, and VISIBLY looked like he was trying to win Finals MVP?

And in the process alienated Shaq and his amazing efficiency on Ben Wallace in lieu of shooting too much? You're really going there?

You are diminishing Kobe's 01 WCF, "it isn't the same" that is diminishing it.

I'm diminishing, you're overrating so ... we cancel each other out. Are you going to seriously even suggest Kobe faced the same defensive attention as those Shaq lead teams?

Shaq's destructive force inside was the most powerful offensive weapon in the league. Teams collapsed on him first. Kobe faced constant ISOs on the wing and perimeter. Regardless if it was against a quality defender (Christie, Bowen) he was treated by defenses as a second option.

To his credit, Bryant made them pay ... which he's supposed to do, but a 2nd option none the less.

Teams weren't zoning up on his drives like the Bad Boy Pistons and Riley Knicks did MJ, forcing him into more compromising situations.

Not the way the 2005, 2006 Pistons and 2010 Celtics had to pay attention to Wade.

He was second option, plain and simple. One who made those defenses pay the price, and took advantage of the extra opportunities placed in front of him. Opportunistic, but NOT LA's best or 1st option and not the oppositions primary concern.

You'd be better off making a case for how Kobe performed as main option on offense from 2006 - on ... anything else is a horse of a different color. When you're alpha, you have to deal with the man defender in front of you, as well as subsequent layers of defense, help defense, or collapsing defense (Shaq's case)

[AlphaWolf24]

When did I say they would have won in 2000 without Kobe? By the way, you have to acknowledge Shaq's role in the comeback as well. He had really struggled through 3, but had an excellent 4th quarter himself.

Because of Kobe....Kobe scored and assisted on the Lakers final 8 points.

Kobe was the one who fueled teh comeback...Kobe was the one playing full court defense....Kobe was the one who broke down Pippen and Grant...and did everything.



Much of this is so one-sided, and some of it is flat out untrue.

- How is it Untrue?....I watched every game of the Lakers seasons throughout the 3 peat and beyond....I lived in LA....

- you said you don't get KCAL 9 , you also don't get FSNW , that means you missed out on easily 3/4th's of LA's seasons....

- so how the F*** are you gonna sit here and act like you can see when you got blinders on?

- I prolly got more laker games on VHS then you evers saw....Your Bias (Shaq attack )is showing through once again trying talk about this Kobe/Shaq era.....especially since you only watched 1/4th of the games





I was referring to the 3peat. And you mean 5 out of 8 seasons.

By the way, Kobe missed more games than Shaq in 2004(17) He missed double digit games 3 out of the 5 years of the Shaq/Kobe/Phil era, same as Shaq. Or 3 out of the 6 years he started with Shaq, which is also the same as Shaq.

You realize that for their entire 8 years together, Shaq missed double digit games in 5 of those seasons, but Kobe missed double digit games in 4.


I was pointing out Shaq's inability to stay in peak condition year round....and his constant resume of missing so many games throught his career...due to poor conditioning...with or without Kobe.

and slighting Kobe who broke his wrist playing streetball in the offseason( he loved to play)....




I never said either player needed each other. But at least I back up my assertion that Shaq was the better those years with evidence from those years.

Shaq was better in 2000....but by no means 2001 - 02' anyone who understands basketball would say Shaq was better.....( a better inside player 3' from teh hoop?...yes.......overall?...absolutley not.

Phil and Shaq both said Kobe was the best player in the NBA..why does that burn you so much?



No, he didn't need Kobe more. He just happened to play with Kobe from age 25-32, in other words, his entire prime and then some. A lot different starting your post Kobe career at 33, then Kobe starting his post-Shaq career at 26.

But if you want to play this game, 34 year old Shaq who was clearly past his prime won a title with Wade.

Kobe barely played his first 2 years.....and Shaq had good perimeter players...He still looked lost.

and why couldn't Shaq win/dominate at 22, 23, 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 ?? ...without Kobe?...if he was so Dominant?....

all of a sudden you can't win unless you are in a imaginary basketball prime 25 - 32?


yeah Shaq won with Wade ( a top 7 player in the NBA)...Kobe won 2 Titles withoput a top 10 player


When did Tex destroy Shaq's ego? Whatever that means.

Tex on Shaq's defensive liability's/work ethic - "Over the years Shaq has had no interest in defense or rebounding, only on the offensive end"

Tex on Shaq's 04' Finals - "Shaq defeated himself against the Pistons - He had one big game in the finals - Boxing out and rebounding was awful by Shaq in the Finals - One assist in a finals game is inexcusable"


He said Jordan welcomed coaching, but other superstars turn a deaf ear. Of all the stars, Winter said O'Neal was the least receptive.

"He doesn't want to hear it," Winter said of O'Neal. "He is not the least bit interested"

the following season Shaq was traded..

He wasn't replaced by Gasol. It was a completely different team. Odom was far better than any 3rd guy the 2000-2002 Lakers had. They also had better small forwards with Ariza in '09 and Artest in '10, and Bynum was a factor in 2010.

Not really...Odom was not far better .....Horry and Fox were just as valuable as Ariza and Odom...



Many still considered Shaq the best in the game. Kobe definitely had the better regular season, but Shaq was better in the playoffs and probably still the more valuable player if your goal is to win a title. But at least you can make a case for either player that year.


I don't know who is the many...no one here in LA thought of Shaq as better then Kobe in 03'.....Kobe's 03' run was one of the greatest scoring seasons ever...it was becoming crystal clear that Shaq was at the end of the line...2 seasons later he was traded


Clear as day that he wasn't healthy.

Tanked to get picks....Him and Shaq only lasted 3 seasons....that team was toast

I didn't need the Lakers network, they've had countless games on National Television for years, plus the games they play against the Knicks and Nets.

You're right that you can't debate this with me, but that's not why. It's because you trying to debate this with me is like Muggsy Bogues trying to guard Shaq.

you watched 10 laker games all season and you still try hard to sound like you know what's goin on......

you can fool some of these kids here....but I know you are Full of ISHT

a poster named Shaqattack running around saying Mugsy couldn't guard Shaq... how original...

what about little Nate???>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7BfIIwcfXQ

next

[AlphaWolf24]

What about the rest of the games? You seriously insinuating Kobe didn't take the defensive assignment of Prince and his quality defense on him and Brown focusing the team defense on him after his clutch performance personally, and VISIBLY looked like he was trying to win Finals MVP?

And in the process alienated Shaq and his amazing efficiency on Ben Wallace in lieu of shooting too much? You're really going there?


I'm diminishing, you're overrating so ... we cancel each other out. Are you going to seriously even suggest Kobe faced the same defensive attention as those Shaq lead teams?

Shaq's destructive force inside was the most powerful offensive weapon in the league. Teams collapsed on him first. Kobe faced constant ISOs on the wing and perimeter. Regardless if it was against a quality defender (Christie, Bowen) he was treated by defenses as a second option.

To his credit, Bryant made them pay ... which he's supposed to do, but a 2nd option none the less.

Teams weren't zoning up on his drives like the Bad Boy Pistons and Riley Knicks did MJ, forcing him into more compromising situations.

Not the way the 2005, 2006 Pistons and 2010 Celtics had to pay attention to Wade.

He was second option, plain and simple. One who made those defenses pay the price, and took advantage of the extra opportunities placed in front of him. Opportunistic, but NOT LA's best or 1st option and not the oppositions primary concern.

You'd be better off making a case for how Kobe performed as main option on offense from 2006 - on ... anything else is a horse of a different color. When you're alpha, you have to deal with the man defender in front of you, as well as subsequent layers of defense, help defense, or collapsing defense (Shaq's case)

First Option?..2nd option?....Kobe had more shots then Shaq?...

and the center is always the start of the triangle....same way in Chicago with Cartwright and Longley.

except Chicago had many more weapons....Lakers just had Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Because of Kobe....Kobe scored and assisted on the Lakers final 8 points.

Kobe was the one who fueled teh comeback...Kobe was the one playing full court defense....Kobe was the one who broke down Pippen and Grant...and did everything.

Shaq scored 9 points in that 4th quarter(same as Kobe) while making some big defensive plays and setting up teammates for some of those threes.

- How is it Untrue?....I watched every game of the Lakers seasons throughout the 3 peat and beyond....I lived in LA....

That doesn't matter considering how biased you are, and you may not know much about basketball either. It's hard to tell with your bias clouding your judgement.

- you said you don't get KCAL 9 , you also don't get FSNW , that means you missed out on easily 3/4th's of LA's seasons....

I don't know exactly how many I watched, but between the TBS games and the Sunday NBC games, there were a lot of regular season Laker games, more than enough to judge as well as the entire playoffs which were always nationally televised.

- so how the F*** are you gonna sit here and act like you can see when you got blinders on?

You really think that you have to live in California to judge Laker players?

I was pointing out Shaq's inability to stay in peak condition year round....and his constant resume of missing so many games throught his career...due to poor conditioning...with or without Kobe.

and slighting Kobe who broke his wrist playing streetball in the offseason( he loved to play)....

If you think Shaq's only problem was conditioning when it came to injuries then you really aren't too bright. Being in better shape consistently may have helped, but the guy entered the league at 7'1", 300+ as a 20 year old rookie. Look around at Greg Oden, Yao and Andrew Bynum to name a few. All are lighter than Shaq, only Yao was taller and they can't stay on the court.

It's a miracle he held up so long, and was ready for the playoffs every year. You have a 7'1", 340 pound(his 2000 weight) man with his style of play, that puts an unbelievable amount of stress on your joints and lower body.

I never said either player needed each other. But at least I back up my assertion that Shaq was the better those years with evidence from those years.

Shaq was better in 2000....but by no means 2001 - 02' anyone who understands basketball would say Shaq was better.....( a better inside player 3' from teh hoop?...yes.......overall?...absolutley not.

Shaq was the more effective player, period, and that means better. Whether it was 10 feet and in, he was still the more effective player. When you play 10 feet and in, your shots are a lot more high percentage shots, and nobody could stop Shaq from getting that close. Plus, it forces teams to double more, and that opened up shots for his teammates because Shaq usually made the right play when he was doubled and didn't force much. Shaq being the biggest mismatch in the NBA is difficult to account for.

That's how the Lakers offense worked, if you ever get a chance to meet Phil, I'm sure he'd tell you the same thing. They went in to Shaq first and foremost, saw how Shaq was playing and how the defense was reacting to him. If Shaq was playing well, they'd keep going to him, if not, they'd change things up in the second half and ask Kobe to look for his shot more.

Phil and Shaq both said Kobe was the best player in the NBA..why does that burn you so much?

Phil never said that, I've proven that you're twisting his quote, you've twisted that quote for other purposes too. Shaq stated he was differentiating between "best" and "most dominant."

Kobe barely played his first 2 years.....and Shaq had good perimeter players...He still looked lost.

The '97 Lakers had talent, but didn't look like the best team in the league, although Shaq did have them with the best record in the West at the all-star break before his injury. Even so, I put the Utah loss on him in '97, he didn't play very well.

'98? The Lakers were the most talented team in the league, and probably the most talented team Shaq had through his first 15 years, rivaled only by his last 2 Orlando teams. But that really doesn't matter. His teammates choked and played like scrubs vs Utah. Shaq was the only one who showed up, and he continued trying to carry

and why couldn't Shaq win/dominate at 22, 23, 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 ?? ...without Kobe?...if he was so Dominant?....

22 year old Shaq was raw. 23 year old Shaq got to the finals, he just lost to a better player(Hakeem) and his cast choked while Hakeem's cast was clutch. In '96, he got to the ECF and lost to a 72-10 Bulls team, while Grant essentially missed the series, Anderson and Shaw also got injured and nobody showed up except Penny. Beating the '96 Bulls was almost impossible anyway, but with those circumstances, forget it.

I already covered '97, Shaq played poorly, and Utah was a better, more experienced team. In '98, Shaq's teammates completely choked, pretty much everyone except Shaq was shooting below 40% and had the attitude of losers. Nick Van Exel yelling "1-2-3 Cancun!" in the huddle during the elimination game, meanwhile, Shaq was still trying to keep his team alive with 19 4th quarter points.

In '99, Shaq played poorly, plus the team was incredibly dysfunctional.

all of a sudden you can't win unless you are in a imaginary basketball prime 25 - 32?

Shaq's prime was from about 26-30 or 31, which is when most players are in their prime. You can win outside it, but 25-32 covers a lot of time. Usually players are on the decline by 32, and usually players are still improving and learning the game before 25. I'd say a finals and a conference finals before 25 is pretty good

yeah Shaq won with Wade ( a top 7 player in the NBA)...Kobe won 2 Titles withoput a top 10 player

Gasol was arguably top 10 both years, definitely in 2010, and at least as valuable as 2000 Kobe. Not that a team is just two players, but I'll stick to your troll logic. Wade won with 34 year old Shaq, Kobe won with prime/peak 28-30 year old Shaq. Guess that means Wade>Kobe, right? By the way, how are the Lakers doing this year?

Tex on Shaq's defensive liability's/work ethic - "Over the years Shaq has had no interest in defense or rebounding, only on the offensive end"

Tex on Shaq's 04' Finals - "Shaq defeated himself against the Pistons - He had one big game in the finals - Boxing out and rebounding was awful by Shaq in the Finals - One assist in a finals game is inexcusable"

How did that "destroy" Shaq's ego, though? I'm well aware of Tex's criticisms, but Shaq's ego seemed as large as ever.

He said Jordan welcomed coaching, but other superstars turn a deaf ear. Of all the stars, Winter said O'Neal was the least receptive.

"He doesn't want to hear it," Winter said of O'Neal. "He is not the least bit interested"

Phil actually said Shaq was willing to be coached, especially during that first season in 2000. He bought into the team concept more than Kobe did in the early 2000s. You know, the same guy Phil called "uncoachable." Shaq adjusted his game to fit the triangle. He couldn't work as much for the shot he wanted in the post every time. Phil asked him to get deep position, and go for the quick move, and if he didn't pass out, and re-post, or they'd swing the ball for an open shot. And he did this regularly while becoming more of a passer than in the past at Phil's request, and still scoring career-highs.

Not really...Odom was not far better .....Horry and Fox were just as valuable as Ariza and Odom...

What a joke. Odom was EASILY better than any 3rd guy on the 3peat Lakers. His versatility alone made him so valuable. He had a superior ability to score and make plays than any 3peat Laker not named Shaq or Kobe, plus he was a much better rebounder than any 3peat Laker not named Shaq.

Odom had his limitations. He could only go to his left, and he didn't always finish as strong as he should have. But he was still better at creating off the dribble than any 3peat Laker not named Kobe by far, a better finisher than any 3peat Laker aside from Shaq and Kobe, and he was great in transition. Not many 6'10" players can get the rebound, go coast to coast and finish, or handle the ball like a point forward.

Odom was an all-star talent, something the 3peat Lakers didn't have outside of Shaq and Kobe. And both him and Ariza played extremely well during the '09 postseason, when they got to avoid the best team(Boston) and Yao didn't play in more than half the Houston series.

I don't know who is the many...no one here in LA thought of Shaq as better then Kobe in 03'.....Kobe's 03' run was one of the greatest scoring seasons ever...it was becoming crystal clear that Shaq was at the end of the line...2 seasons later he was traded

I don't care what LA exclusively thinks. LA fans are no more knowledgeable than NY or Chicago fans. And I doubt what you're saying is true anyway.

Tanked to get picks....Him and Shaq only lasted 3 seasons....that team was toast

They did tank after a certain point, still doesn't mean Wade was anywhere near 100%.

you watched 10 laker games all season and you still try hard to sound like you know what's goin on......

you can fool some of these kids here....but I know you are Full of ISHT

You don't know anything, and I watched FAR more than 10 Laker games. I've probably watched more than that already of THIS Laker team, and they don't have my favorite player on them. Not to mention, I didn't even have TV for the first few weeks of the season due to the hurricane and only watched games when I went to a bar to watch the Knicks.

[AlphaWolf24]

Shaq scored 9 points in that 4th quarter(same as Kobe) while making some big defensive plays and setting up teammates for some of those threes.


More then half of those points came from Kobe breaking down the defense...forcing a doubleteam and finding Shaq or the open man who could swing it.

again...Kobe lead the Lakers in scoring rebounding and assists....he came up the biggest when his team needed him the most...

much like Wade in 06', If not for Kobe's top shelf ability to create in crunchtime....a Shaq team would once again come up short


That doesn't matter considering how biased you are, and you may not know much about basketball either. It's hard to tell with your bias clouding your judgement.

Your just as Biased as anyone here " Shaq Attack"


especially when it comes to Kobe bieng widley regarded as better then Shaq...you can't help it.

I also watched every game of every season of the 3peat Lakers...and have followed Lakers BBALL almost religiously since the Magic and Bird era...

forget about Nick the Quick and cancun...what about Anthony Peeler and Sedale Threat singin " stop ShowerTIME!"

I don't know exactly how many I watched,

Far less then me...I would never say I knew more about the KNICKS ( if I only watched a few National Televised games) then a hardcore KNICKS fan who watched every game...

think about it for 1 second....you really think you know more about the Lakers then me?...

You really think that you have to live in California to judge Laker players?

- You weren't here to see Byron Scott always catch fire when LA was up by 20....but if dey were down by 20 he couldn't shoot the Queen Mary if he was standing on it...

- You wern't here When Travis Knight had to eat 4 double double's at N- out

- You didn't get to see Kobe break his wrist at Venice because he couldn't wait to play...

- You never read Phil Harrisons letter telling Phil Jackson how to coach..

- You never got a Jack in the Crack Laker 87' 88' Finals MUG...after ordering 10 cat food jack in the crack taco's

- You aint never yelled at Terry Teagle to pass it....or to Rambo to shoot it.

- You aint never thought George Lynch was the 2nd coming of AC Green....only to see AC become the next George Lynch

- You wern't at the coliseum live to see Magic's 40 against Mullins 40

- You never laughed at Bob Macadoo eating at Roscoe's chicken and waffles...



watching a few games on TBS aint the same thing son....


I never said either player needed each other. But at least I back up my assertion that Shaq was the better those years with evidence from those years.

I was just pointing out how many games he missed....conditioning has alot to do with it...(he was overweight since the 2000 season)...( if he was motivated like 05' for his whole career...he could have still played at a higher level)

for whatever the reasons...his conditioning was always in flux and hurt his teams ( other great Bigmen who kept in shape prolonged thier careers)


That's how the Lakers offense worked, if you ever get a chance to meet Phil, I'm sure he'd tell you the same thing. They went in to Shaq first and foremost, saw how Shaq was playing and how the defense was reacting to him.


Of course, The Triangle offense always starts with the Big man....it was the same way in Chicago....except Cartwright and Longley weren't as dominant..and the Bull's had 2 HOF perimeter players..and allstar's at the PF and PG positions

LA had only Kobe and Shaq,.....But it wasn't just "dump it to Shaq and hope for the best" ( much more complicated then that)....he was an awful FT shooter that hurt the team ( If he was fouled it was like an empty possesion), if he didn't get the ball it affected his defense, and his ability in Crunchtime was a liabilty,......recentley Charles barkley told Shaq " Kobe was the reason he could win games in the playoff's.....Kobe could take over all the 4th quarter playmaking"

and Shaq responded by saying "He ( Shaq ) was not the first option....the triangle would have to go to the post but the defense dictated who would get a shot"

seems to me the facilitator/closer is more important then a Big man.....hence why he was traded


Phil never said that, I've proven that you're twisting his quote, you've twisted that quote for other purposes too. Shaq stated he was differentiating between "best" and "most dominant."

Phil did say that...and shaq said "Kobe was the best player in the league" - 2001

Bryant would play unselfishly in the playoffs.[45] O'Neal referred to Bryant as "[his] idol" and "the best player in the league, by far" following a victory in Game 1 of that year's Western Conference Finals.

The '97 Lakers had talent, but didn't look like the best team in the league, although Shaq did have them with the best record in the West at the all-star break before his injury. Even so, I put the Utah loss on him in '97, he didn't play very well.

'98? The Lakers were the most talented team in the league, But that really doesn't matter. His teammates choked and played like scrubs vs Utah. Shaq was the only one who showed up, and he continued trying to carry



22 year old Shaq was raw. 23 year old Shaq got to the finals, he just lost to a better player(Hakeem) and his cast choked while Hakeem's cast was clutch. Nick Van Exel yelling "1-2-3 Cancun!" in the huddle during the elimination game, meanwhile, Shaq was still trying to keep his team alive with 19 4th quarter points.

In '99, Shaq played poorly, plus the team was incredibly dysfunctional.



Shaq's prime was from about 26-30 or 31, which is when most players are in their prime. You can win outside it, but 25-32 covers a lot of time.

So Shaq couldn't really win outside his prime.....because A) he was still learning B) His teammates Choked and were dysfunctional C)He was RAW


- or it just so happened that he started winning when Kobe became a Star who was used to Finishing games...because his first 2 seasons he barley played and came up short in the playoff's.....point bieng the Lakers still went to Kobe in Crunchtime....if he was 200 0- 2002 Kobe the Lakers beat Utah.

- Shaq was the same player in 95' as he was in 2000 ( In fact IMO younger Shaq was much more dangerous..he was faster/quiker played better Defense)....He just had a much better player next to him that could carry the team in the 4th quarter.

Gasol was arguably top 10 both years, definitely in 2010, and at least as valuable as 2000 Kobe

. Not that a team is just two players, but I'll stick to your troll logic. Wade won with 34 year old Shaq, Kobe won with prime/peak 28-30 year old Shaq. Guess that means Wade>Kobe, right? By the way, how are the Lakers doing this year?


Your not Bias?....Wade won 1 title followed by a 15 win season...Kobe and Shaq went to 4 NBA Finals....oh yeah I forgot...Shaq didn't hit his prime...


Thank goodness it take 7 seasons for Larry Bird and Magic to hit thier Primes.


How did that "destroy" Shaq's ego, though? I'm well aware of Tex's criticisms, but Shaq's ego seemed as large as ever.

Because Tex calling out Shaq's work ethic/mental fortitude was the last straw, Shaq has burned nearly every bridge on every team he's played on...

and after the Finals where TEX called him on his play...he imediatly started to call the Laker Brass out...



Phil actually said Shaq was willing to be coached, especially during that first season in 2000.

maybe 2000 kobe was just RAW???...too young?

Phil also came back and coached the lakers/Kobe to 3 straight Finals....he also said any team with Kobe has a great chance for a Title....

also said Kobe is the best allaround player he ever coached..



What a joke. Odom was EASILY better than any 3rd guy on the 3peat Lakers. His versatility alone made him so valuable.

Odom was an all-star talent, something the 3peat Lakers didn't have outside of Shaq and Kobe. And both him and Ariza played extremely well during the '09 postseason, when they got to avoid the best team(Boston) and Yao didn't play in more than half the Houston series.


Odom never was an allstar.....Not a great outside shooter, his ability to create off the dribble is mediocre at best, above average open court player( great at finishing with his left....going right is dreadful)...but makes alot of bad plays...Interior rebounding IMO was his best Attribute

Glenn rice was just as valuable as Odom Was
.

I don't care what LA exclusively thinks. LA fans are no more knowledgeable than NY or Chicago fans. And I doubt what you're saying is true anyway.

whatever....we know Hoop.... at someone from Canada trying tell us about our team


They did tank after a certain point, still doesn't mean Wade was anywhere near 100%.


He's never near 100%...no one is. He Knew his team was garbage so he quit


I didn't even have TV for the first few weeks of the season due to the hurricane and only watched games when I went to a bar to watch the Knicks.

great , so now you don't even have a TV..

U R way to Bias on this subject son...



next

[ShaqAttack3234]

again...Kobe lead the Lakers in scoring rebounding and assists....he came up the biggest when his team needed him the most...

Kobe was in fact the MVP of that game. That's not what I take issue with. I take issue with you acting the like the 4th quarter comeback was all him when Shaq also played a fantastic 4th quarter, and the role players stepped up while the Blazers choked as bad as you can.

especially when it comes to Kobe bieng widley regarded as better then Shaq...you can't help it.

Except Kobe wasn't widely regarded as better than Shaq back then, quite the contrary. Samurai Swoosh doesn't even like Shaq, never has, and has always been a Kobe fan, yet he's saying the same thing.

think about it for 1 second....you really think you know more about the Lakers then me?...

I think I know more about Shaq than you do, and basketball than you do.

- You weren't here to see Byron Scott always catch fire when LA was up by 20....but if dey were down by 20 he couldn't shoot the Queen Mary if he was standing on it...

I don't care about California, and I don't claim to be a Laker fan. But I did watch a lot of Laker games when Shaq was there, and I typically watch as much of the greatest players and greatest teams as I can, even more in Shaq's case because he was my favorite player.

By your logic, you have no business judging Lebron or Jordan since they don't play in California....yet you do.

I was just pointing out how many games he missed....conditioning has alot to do with it...(he was overweight since the 2000 season)...( if he was motivated like 05' for his whole career...he could have still played at a higher level)

I do think Shaq should have stayed at his 2005 weight for the latter part of his career, I think his game would have benefited from it. Even so, he was still 325-330 pounds. He's just huge, whether he's in shape or not. And ironically, 2005 was the only year before Boston that he had to miss playoff games, so it proves it's not as simple as you make it out to be. Humans typically aren't 7'1", 325. Hell, 6'1", 225 is very big for a normal person.

for whatever the reasons...his conditioning was always in flux and hurt his teams ( other great Bigmen who kept in shape prolonged thier careers)

Yet Shaq's longevity is comparable to most big men and better than many,

LA had only Kobe and Shaq,.....But it wasn't just "dump it to Shaq and hope for the best" ( much more complicated then that)....he was an awful FT shooter that hurt the team ( If he was fouled it was like an empty possesion), if he didn't get the ball it affected his defense, and his ability in Crunchtime was a liabilty,......recentley Charles barkley told Shaq " Kobe was the reason he could win games in the playoff's.....Kobe could take over all the 4th quarter playmaking"

and Shaq responded by saying "He ( Shaq ) was not the first option....the triangle would have to go to the post but the defense dictated who would get a shot"

Shaq claimed he wasn't the first option because he claims "there was no first option in the triangle."

Obviously, the triangle wasn't just dump it in to Shaq, that's why I love the offense. It's a great offense to watch, and so much better than watching iso ball. Credit to stars like MJ, Shaq and Kobe for working their individual dominance into the system.

By the way, Phil is on record numerous times calling Shaq the first option, Kobe has also acknowledged this, and Barkley has also stated many times that Shaq was the man on the 3peat Lakers. Kenny Smith, and Reggie Miller have also brought this up recently on TNT or Open Court.

seems to me the facilitator/closer is more important then a Big man.....hence why he was traded

Apparently not, as evidenced by the huge disparity in the Lakers record from 2000-2002 with Shaq/without Kobe and vice versa.

Phil did say that...and shaq said "Kobe was the best player in the league" - 2001

Phil didn't say that. Shaq did call Kobe the best, but he clarified that he differentiates between "best" and "most dominant." By best, he says he meant most skilled. Check before game 2 of the 2001 WCF, you can hear that he clarifies what he meant.

22 year old Shaq was raw. 23 year old Shaq got to the finals, he just lost to a better player(Hakeem) and his cast choked while Hakeem's cast was clutch. Nick Van Exel yelling "1-2-3 Cancun!" in the huddle during the elimination game, meanwhile, Shaq was still trying to keep his team alive with 19 4th quarter points.

In '99, Shaq played poorly, plus the team was incredibly dysfunctional.

So Shaq couldn't really win outside his prime.....because A) he was still learning B) His teammates Choked and were dysfunctional C)He was RAW

You do need experience, Shaq got to the finals at 22 in his 3rd year on a team that had virtually no playoff experience outside of Horace Grant. And yes, Shaq was clearly raw in 1994.

And do you deny that his teammates choked big time in 1998, or certain teammates before that(Nick "The Brick" Anderson)?

- or it just so happened that he started winning when Kobe became a Star who was used to Finishing games...because his first 2 seasons he barley played and came up short in the playoff's.....point bieng the Lakers still went to Kobe in Crunchtime....if he was 200 0- 2002 Kobe the Lakers beat Utah.

Well, Shaq needed teammates who wouldn't crumble in the playoffs like his '98 teammates, and Kobe gave him that. His '98 team was easily more talented than the 3peat Lakers, but none of them could step up to the pressure like Kobe did.

You act as though I don't acknowledge Kobe was already a great player and essential to those teams?

- Shaq was the same player in 95' as he was in 2000 ( In fact IMO younger Shaq was much more dangerous..he was faster/quiker played better Defense)....He just had a much better player next to him that could carry the team in the 4th quarter.

What a troll, Shaq was obviously better in 2000 than 1995, and his defense was easily at it's best in 2000. EVERYONE was remarking about that during the season. Stop trying to revise history. Shaq was also smarter, a better passer and more skilled in 2000 than 1995. He was more patient in the post, his jump hook had a better touch, and his one-handed turnaround had become a consistent move, while in '95, it was still a work in progress.

Your not Bias?....Wade won 1 title followed by a 15 win season...Kobe and Shaq went to 4 NBA Finals....oh yeah I forgot...Shaq didn't hit his prime...

Shaq was in his prime from '98-'02, maybe '03, so most of the time he played with Kobe.

Wade has now won 2 titles. For the record, I've always thought Kobe was better than Wade, I'm just trolling because that's all you're doing.

Thank goodness it take 7 seasons for Larry Bird and Magic to hit thier Primes.

Actually, Magic didn't reach his prime until the '86-'87 season when he was 27 years old and in his 8th season. Bird reached his prime around '84 or '85 when he was 27/28.

Because Tex calling out Shaq's work ethic/mental fortitude was the last straw, Shaq has burned nearly every bridge on every team he's played on...

and after the Finals where TEX called him on his play...he imediatly started to call the Laker Brass out...

Tex was never the boss. Shaq demanded a trade because they wouldn't give him his extension and he felt that the Lakers were favoring Kobe over him at that point. I remember it like it was yesterday. He demanded the trade in early July after he found out the Phil wasn't returning and the Lakers didn't tell Shaq, or at least he claimed.

Phil also came back and coached the lakers/Kobe to 3 straight Finals....he also said any team with Kobe has a great chance for a Title....

also said Kobe is the best allaround player he ever coached..

Phil NEVER said Kobe was the best all around player he coached, you're taking that quote out of context to support your own agenda...again.

Odom never was an allstar.....Not a great outside shooter, his ability to create off the dribble is mediocre at best, above average open court player( great at finishing with his left....going right is dreadful)...but makes alot of bad plays...Interior rebounding IMO was his best Attribute

Consistency kept him from being an all-star, though he had all-star caliber seasons in 2004 with Miami and 2011 when he was 6th man of the year. Even so, he was perfect for the 3rd option role, his flaws were covered in that role, and his strengths became a real asset.

Glenn rice was just as valuable as Odom Was.

Congratulations, you just proved you didn't watch that Laker team. Everyone knew Rice was expendable at that point, that's why they made no effort to retain him and were trying to trade him throughout the season.

Old Glen Rice post-elbow surgery didn't have much of an impact. He averaged 12/4/2, 41 FG% for the playoffs while getting benched late in games for getting lit up defensively and not moving without the ball. Odom was so much more important than 2000 Rice. Hell, Rick Fox was better for the 2001 team than Rice was for the 2000 team.

whatever....we know Hoop.... at someone from Canada trying tell us about our team

Never been to Canada.

He's never near 100%...no one is. He Knew his team was garbage so he quit

Physically, there was a MASSIVE difference between Wade then and in '09.

great , so now you don't even have a TV..

I said I DIDN'T, I never said that I DON'T. The power was out in many parts of NY/NJ around that time, or do you have no idea what goes on outside of California?