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Old 02-23-2010, 02:32 PM   #46
Kurosawa0
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by GollyImSoGully
Kareem.

Don't even act like it's not close. Many believe Kareem was the GOAT and he has a legit case.

I'm not saying Kareem isn't in the conversation, but Jordan had the better career. When I think of definitive NBA plays, I don't think of Kareem. He's top five, but he lacks the intangibles that would make a player the GOAT.

I mean, if I had to show someone that had never heard of basketball the best player ever, it's Michael. That's not even close.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:35 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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I disagree though that "Alot" of his enigma has come from his GOAT image. The clutch plays, rings, domination he had in an era with many Hall of Famer Bigs is the reason why he is in the discussion for GOAT and is considered a legend. Alot of it is not attributed to the media's hype of him as the GOAT.

What I meant regarding his cache was with the average Joe watching his Hanes ads, not hardcore fans.

I agree with you that Jordan earned a place in the GOAT discussion; what he did not earn is the death of the GOAT discussion. When is the last time you saw a "Who is the GOAT?" thread here? We discuss everything here. We talk about GOAT dunker, GOAT PG, GOAT this, GOAT that. Never the overall GOAT, though. Why? We know the answer: 99% of people have Jordan as the GOAT. Why? How did he reach such a level? And accomplishments only go so far. Even his final record is not light years ahead of the rest and Jordan was elevated to majority GOAT after "only" 3 rings and 3 MVP's. Things are to the point that it is controversial just to have anyone other than MJ as GOAT.

Quote:
Jordan came into the league and peaked with the right players at the right time, place, and decade.

To some here that is a controversial statement.

Quote:
We can talk about the media, but no other player has a better case than Jordan as the best of all time. Simply, what other player has had as many memorable moments as Jordan?

How can we compare when the media only presents one case? Memorable moments? Yeah, how often do you see some of MJ's best moments on ESPN? When is the last time you saw a Kareem, Wilt, or Russell highlight?

Quote:
I'm not saying Kareem isn't in the conversation, but Jordan had the better career. When I think of definitive NBA plays, I don't think of Kareem. He's top five, but he lacks the intangibles that would make a player the GOAT.

Better? How? Of course you don't think of him for definitive NBA plays. He doesn't have ESPn replaying his best moments 24/7 like Jordan. How many times a year do they show the Jordan shot on Russell?

What intangibles does Kareem lack?

A last point: every legend's record is scrutinized. We all know about Wilt's selfishness and Game 7 losses, we know about Kareem having "only" 1 ring before Magic, we know about Magic's weak defense, etc. This applies to lesser greats as well, not just top-tier ones. Jordan is the one guy who receives no scrutiny. How many top 40 of all-time players had more losing seasons than him? How come no one ever mentions that wart on his record? Look at the overrated legends thread up. Legend after legend has his record examine except Jordan?
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:37 PM   #48
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
im curious as to what George Gervin, Rick Barry and Karreem's streaks are?

As am I. Kareem put up 35ppg some seasons. Barry too. Gervin was over 30 a few times. He scored double digits in like 400 straight games. Mcadoo put up like 35ppg. Elgin Baylor scored 20 or more in 49 straight...PLAYOFF games.

Does seem a little odd to me to just manufacture records. If its not a record its not a record. Jordan has plenty of real records. Why act like he has records he doesnt? Ive heard people flat out saying Jordan has the record too. And "Last 30 years" isnt a record for a 60+ year old league. Its creating one for the sake of...what? What happened in 1980 to make 1978 irrelevant anyway? I know its considered the new era with Magic and Bird coming along...but like 85% of the league from the late 70s was there in the 80s too.

If we are gonna pretend the 60s didnt happen for numbers related reasons why are we pretending the 80s and early 90s happened? Anyone expecting someone to give up 131ppg as happened in 1990? It never happened in the 60s. Anyone expecting the top 5 in asssits to be getting 14 or 15, 13, 12, 10, and 10 as happened in the 80s? Who is about to have 25/18, 26/15, 28/15, 31/15, and 25/15 in 5 straight years? Moses Malone did it. Dennis Rodman put up 21, 21, and 20 rebounds a game for 3 straight months in 1992. Since nobody is gonna do that now we gonna pretend the records for most say....15 rebound games in a row is held by Dwight Howard? Mark Eaton averaged 6 blocks a game in 1985. Bol put up 5 a game in like 25 minutes. Since we have neither enough posessions or enough 7'8'' guys with 8'6'' wingspans for that to happen now should we pretend Dwight is coming up on Theo Ratliff and Zo block records?

Wilt didnt dominate because it was 1962 he did it because his coached asked him to because he felt the team needed it. And he was great enough to perform at that level. Minus that demand he would have probably put up 38ppg or less as he did for most of his prime which is a number Jordan proved possible vs 80s competition. Demand Jordan give you 50 a game in 87 and he just might do it.

Magic and Stockton didnt get 13-15 assists because it was 1988 and teams were running. They did it because they are probably the 2 best playmakers of all time.

Bol didnt block 5 shots because it was 1987. He did it because he was 11 feet tall and mobile.

The Nuggets didnt give up 131ppg because the 80s didnt play D they did it because their whole gameplan was fast breaks and quick shots which gave opponents an insane number of posessions with which to score.

Moses Malone didnt get 30/15 because it was the 80s. he got it because he was relentless and averaged like 7 offensive rebounds some seasons off tapping the ball to himself.

Rodman didnt get 19 rebounds a game because the early 90s was an era of shitty rebounders. He got 19 in 92 the same way he got 14 in 2000 as an old man. He has crazy instincts, works hard, and will run through a wall made of his loved ones to get a loose ball.

Records are what they are for a combo of situation and talent of the players in question. To totally dismiss people who built the game(be it 60s players or 80s) because they did things they wouldnt have enough posessions to do today just seems foolish and disrespectful to me. Everyone...everywhere...KNOWS Wilt couldnt get 50/25 today. Just would not have enough shots to do it and no coach would try to ride him to that extent. Doesnt mean the record isnt his. Or Baylors. Or whoever else we pretend doesnt exist for the sake of hyping up the more recent.

I used to be annoyed by my uncle talking about those days. But now that im old enough to remember a bygone era that kids disrespect like they know what they are talking about(the 80s and early 90s) I understand it.

Jordan only benefits from it now. Give it like 15-20 years and people will be on here saying he couldnt dominate 2025 because ______. Its already happening now. How many times have you heard people who never saw him live claim Bird couldnt be great today...when he was great vs guys who retired in like...2008?

Just wait it out. This shit wont be just on Wilt. In 30 years people might well be saying Durant has the record....as if the NBA started in 2000. It wont make any more sense then than it does now.

If its not the record its not the record and I dont care if its to prop up Jordan, Kobe, or whoever else.

Dismissing the past...eventually...will dismiss everyone. Not just the guys we dont remember so the guys we love get extra props. In 20 years little idiots will be saying Lebron cant get to the basket like that in their era. Watch. And I promise you 6'9'' 278 pound guys who play 4 positions wont be the standard in 20 years any more than 7'1'' 270 pound track stars who long jump 22-24 feet(as a matter of record...not opinion) are standard now.

Doesnt stop people from pretending Wilt was a product of the times.

Wilt was a monster because he was a monster. The specific stats are era influenced but to totally disregard half the leagues history is absurd. And once they start doing it to Jordan(and they will) everyone will see it.. Except the 16 yearold of that time who will think he was garbage.

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Old 02-23-2010, 02:39 PM   #49
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

It doesn't have to be shown as much as Michael's highlights, but it does have to be shown. We see Cousy's steal, Magic's sky hook, Bird's miss recovery, the Kobe-Shaq dunk. These are moments that when they happen, you say "I'm lucky I got to see that." Where are those Kareem highlights?

Put this way, did Pat Riley have Miami retire Kareem's number?
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:40 PM   #50
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

This thread is retarded.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:40 PM   #51
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurosawa0
I'm not saying Kareem isn't in the conversation, but Jordan had the better career. When I think of definitive NBA plays, I don't think of Kareem. He's top five, but he lacks the intangibles that would make a player the GOAT.

I mean, if I had to show someone that had never heard of basketball the best player ever, it's Michael. That's not even close.


Careful when you say better career. I agree with everything you said, but Kareem had arguably the best career out of all the people in the discussion for GOAT. This is considering all-star berths, amount of time as a top player in the league, ALL-NBA selections, rings, everything pretty much.

I do agree though that Jordan had the intangibles that make him the popular GOAT pick. Popular in the sense where it gets people excited to say he was this great. You really don't see peeps getting too excited when stating why Kareem is the greatest. He really wasn't a very charismatic guy to the public. Plus, the bulk of his championships came when he had Johnson and when he was not as dominant as he was statistically as a center during the 70's.

Just wanted to warn you because you will potentially start a full page list of responses with stats regarding why Kareem had a better career.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:46 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
What I meant regarding his cache was with the average Joe watching his Hanes ads, not hardcore fans.

I agree with you that Jordan earned a place in the GOAT discussion; what he did not earn is the death of the GOAT discussion. When is the last time you saw a "Who is the GOAT?" thread here? We discuss everything here. We talk about GOAT dunker, GOAT PG, GOAT this, GOAT that. Never the overall GOAT, though. Why? We know the answer: 99% of people have Jordan as the GOAT. Why? How did he reach such a level? And accomplishments only go so far. Even his final record is not light years ahead of the rest and Jordan was elevated to majority GOAT after "only" 3 rings and 3 MVP's. Things are to the point that it is controversial just to have anyone other than MJ as GOAT.



To some here that is a controversial statement.



How can we compare when the media only presents one case? Memorable moments? Yeah, how often do you see some of MJ's best moments on ESPN? When is the last time you saw a Kareem, Wilt, or Russell highlight?



Better? How? Of course you don't think of him for definitive NBA plays. He doesn't have ESPn replaying his best moments 24/7 like Jordan. How many times a year do they show the Jordan shot on Russell?

What intangibles does Kareem lack?

A last point: every legend's record is scrutinized. We all know about Wilt's selfishness and Game 7 losses, we know about Kareem having "only" 1 ring before Magic, we know about Magic's weak defense, etc. This applies to lesser greats as well, not just top-tier ones. Jordan is the one guy who receives no scrutiny. How many top 40 of all-time players had more losing seasons than him? How come no one ever mentions that wart on his record? Look at the overrated legends thread up. Legend after legend has his record examine except Jordan?


Reflective of the way you take a lone sentence by itself and nitpick it with your response instead of viewing the picture as a whole, you do the same with your last point. Jordan is the one guy who receives no scrutiny?

As a huge Jordan fan who believes he is the GOAT, I came into the defense of Kareem and stated he had the better career. I have also had plenty of discussions with friends, co-workers, students, random people who agree that Jordan won nothing without Pippen. Please don't state "Jordan is the one guy who receives no scrutiny" based on the posts and threads listed on the ISH board. Taking a piece from what you said, an average joe watching a Hanes commercial is not the same average ISH poster who will be posting GOAT threads on ISH.

Have you considered why the reason there is no more "Who is GOAT threads" is because arguments between you and me like right now would be a continuous loop that would go on forever. Just let things be what they are, instead of scrutinizing all the specifics and stating your opinion like it "simply is what it is".

I swear, the amount of times you or someone else comes in whenever someone says something regarding Jordan in hopes of combating the statement that he is not the "clear" GOAT gets annoying. Do you honestly think going to thread after thread on ISH and nitpicking will change the general opinion of the public regarding Jordan?

Just be appreciative that you have supporters of Jordan being GOAT like me, who understand it isn't as definite as many people make it out to be.

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Old 02-23-2010, 02:48 PM   #53
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellogs4toniee
Careful when you say better career. I agree with everything you said, but Kareem had arguably the best career out of all the people in the discussion for GOAT. This is considering all-star berths, amount of time as a top player in the league, ALL-NBA selections, rings, everything pretty much.

I do agree though that Jordan had the intangibles that make him the popular GOAT pick. Popular in the sense where it gets people excited to say he was this great. You really don't see peeps getting too excited when stating why Kareem is the greatest. He really wasn't a very charismatic guy to the public. Plus, the bulk of his championships came when he had Johnson and when he was not as dominant as he was statistically as a center during the 70's.

Just wanted to warn you because you will potentially start a full page list of responses with stats regarding why Kareem had a better career.

To me it comes down to a level of comfort. If I say Kareem is the greatest, it feels weak. Like that, if you were to write a book about the history of the NBA, you're chapter on Kareem wouldn't need to be any longer than the one about Magic or Russell. All three were great, but none more than the other in a major way. If you were writing that book, the chapter on Michael has to be extensive.

It just comes down to which figure you want to define basketball by. I'm not picking Kareem, at all.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:48 PM   #54
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
It doesn't have to be shown as much as Michael's highlights, but it does have to be shown. We see Cousy's steal, Magic's sky hook, Bird's miss recovery, the Kobe-Shaq dunk.

So why aren't they? When is the last time the media showed a Kareem, Wilt, or Bill Russell highlight? These are Jordan's chief competitors.

Jordan may indeed be better. The question is what made him light years better to the point that ESPN's magazine can put up a cover declaring him "The best ever"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
As am I. Kareem put up 35ppg some seasons. Barry too. Gervin was over 30 a few times. He scored double digits in like 400 straight games. Mcadoo put up like 35ppg. Elgin Baylor scored 20 or more in 49 straight...PLAYOFF games.

Does seem a little odd to me to just manufacture records. If its not a record its not a record. Jordan has plenty of real records. Why act like he has records he doesnt? Ive heard people flat out saying Jordan has the record too. And "Last 30 years" isnt a record for a 60+ year old league. Its creating one for the sake of...what? What happened in 1980 to make 1978 irrelevant anyway? I know its considered the new era with Magic and Bird coming along...but like 85% of the league from the late 70s was there in the 80s too.

If we are gonna pretend the 60s didnt happen for numbers related reasons why are we pretending the 80s and early 90s happened? Anyone expecting someone to give up 131ppg as happened in 1990? It never happened in the 60s. Anyone expecting the top 5 in asssits to be getting 14 or 15, 13, 12, 10, and 10 as happened in the 80s? Who is about to have 25/18, 26/15, 28/15, 31/15, and 25/15 in 5 straight years? Moses Malone did it. Dennis Rodman put up 21, 21, and 20 rebounds a game for 3 straight months in 1992. Since nobody is gonna do that now we gonna pretend the records for most say....15 rebound games in a row is held by Dwight Howard? Mark Eaton averaged 6 blocks a game in 1985. Bol put up 5 a game in like 25 minutes. Since we have neither enough posessions or enough 7'8'' guys with 8'6'' wingspans for that to happen now should we pretend Dwight is coming up on Theo Ratliff and Zo block records?

Wilt didnt dominate because it was 1962 he did it because his coached asked him to because he felt the team needed it. And he was great enough to perform at that level. Minus that demand he would have probably put up 38ppg or less as he did for most of his prime which is a number Jordan proved possible vs 80s competition. Demand Jordan give you 50 a game in 87 and he just might do it.

Magic and Stockton didnt get 13-15 assists because it was 1988 and teams were running. They did it because they are probably the 2 best playmakers of all time.

Bol didnt block 5 shots because it was 1987. He did it because he was 11 feet tall and mobile.

The Nuggets didnt give up 131ppg because the 80s didnt play D they did it because their whole gameplan was fast breaks and quick shots which gave opponents an insane number of posessions with which to score.

Moses Malone didnt get 30/15 because it was the 80s. he got it because he was relentless and averaged like 7 offensive rebounds some seasons off tapping the ball to himself.

Rodman didnt get 19 rebounds a game because the early 90s was an era of shitty rebounders. He got 19 in 92 the same way he got 14 in 2000 as an old man. He has crazy instincts, works hard, and will run through a wall made of his loved ones to get a loose ball.

Records are what they are for a combo of situation and talent of the players in question. To totally dismiss people who built the game(be it 60s players or 80s) because they did things they wouldnt have enough posessions to do today just seems foolish and disrespectful to me. Everyone...everywhere...KNOWS Wilt couldnt get 50/25 today. Just would not have enough shots to do it and no coach would try to ride him to that extent. Doesnt mean the record isnt his. Or Baylors. Or whoever else we pretend doesnt exist for the sake of hyping up the more recent.

I used to be annoyed by my uncle talking about those days. But now that im old enough to remember a bygone era that kids disrespect like they know what they are talking about(the 80s and early 90s) I understand it.

Jordan only benefits from it now. Give it like 15-20 years and people will be on here saying he couldnt dominate 2025 because ______. Its already happening now. How many times have you heard people who never saw him live claim Bird couldnt be great today...when he was great vs guys who retired in like...2008?

Just wait it out. This shit wont be just on Wilt. In 30 years people might well be saying Durant has the record....as if the NBA started in 2000. It wont make any more sense then than it does now.

If its not the record its not the record and I dont care if its to prop up Jordan, Kobe, or whoever else.

Dismissing the past...eventually...will dismiss everyone. Not just the guys we dont remember so the guys we love get extra props. In 20 years little idiots will be saying Lebron cant get to the basket like that in their era. Watch. And I promise you 6'9'' 278 pound guys who play 4 positions wont be the standard in 20 years any more than 7'1'' 270 pound track stars who long jump 22-24 feet(as a matter of record...not opinion) are standard now.

Doesnt stop people from pretending Wilt was a product of the times.

Wilt was a monster because he was a monster. The specific stats are era influenced but to totally disregard half the leagues history is absurd. And once they start doing it to Jordan(and they will) everyone will see it.. Except the 16 yearold of that time who will think he was garbage.



As usual, great post. The irony is Jordan fans most vehemently deny what has happened when it is only a matter of time before the same thing is done to Jordan. Look at all the Lebron vs. Jordan comparisons. Look at the media hype surrounding Kobe going for 6 or 7 rings (remember, the media tells us the record is 6, wink, wink). Suppose Kobe reaches 7. Gee, what do you think the media is teeing up for? Are they talking about 7 just for fun? No, they are going to attach some significance to it and if Kobe gets to 7 the same people defending the media record on Jordan will be complaining the loudest.

Quote:
Jordan is the one guy who receives no scrutiny?

Where is all this scrutiny? Where is it in the media? Here? Just some mystery people making statements we cannot confirm? Jordan not winning without Pippen, for instance, means nothing if it is not put in context. It looks a lot worse when compared to the record of every other top-tier great without his best teammate. This is the kind of stuff that is ignored when it comes to Jordan.

Quote:
Taking a piece from what you said, an average joe watching a Hanes commercial is not the same average ISH poster who will be posting GOAT threads on ISH.

Those are separate issues. The media image is created for the average Joe, not you. The campaign to create that image inevitably has trickle down effects on others. As the poster above you mentioned, we see all of MJ's great moments all the time don't we?

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-23-2010 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:49 PM   #55
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

I don't have much time right now, so I will make my comments later on tonight, but for those that question Roundball Rock's stats on Wilt's game logs in that 61-62 season, here they are, as recorded by Harvey Pollack...who recorded EVERY game that Wilt played that year...live:

http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/Poll...0607_Stats.pdf
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:52 PM   #56
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

You have remember, we don't have the greatest record of that era. We don't have any footage of Wilt's 100. So, of course ESPN is going to show the stuff they can.

It's why Kobe's 81 is automatically said to be the better performance. Why? We can see it.
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Old 02-23-2010, 02:54 PM   #57
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
So why aren't they? When is the last time the media showed a Kareem, Wilt, or Bill Russell highlight? These are Jordan's chief competitors.

Jordan may indeed be better. The question is what made him light years better to the point that ESPN's magazine can put up a cover declaring him "The best ever"?

It's called Marketing. I honestly don't think ESPN had ISH posters who really know there stuff, which clearly you do, in mind when trying to sell as much prints as they could.
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:00 PM   #58
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
To a substantial extent, yes. A lot of Jordan's cache comes from the "GOAT" image. This is why I will be at the very people who today are saying the media has zero to do with his present status when the media designates another player, probably within the next 5 years, as the new GOAT. This happens like clockwork in every sport every 15-20 years, barring a freak thing like a widespread steroids scandal (which prevented Bonds' elevation to GOAT). There is too much incentive to elevate someone new to GOAT. Increased ratings, more magazine sales, more webhits, etc.



The same thing happens in every sport. The difference in basketball is the extent to which it happened. At least in other sports there is still a GOAT discussion; in basketball the media designated Jordan the GOAT after 3 rings and 3 MVP's and that was that. Of course, Jordan had the biggest marketing campaign in the history of sports behind him so that kind of helped.

Not disagreeing that the media hypes up Jordan. I just think it completely ridiculous and hysterical that people like you think that media outlets conspire to that extent of purposefully lying about records that nobody really cares about, and risking their own credibility as a result. As if 1 million viewers switch over to ESPN just to hear Jordan's name.
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:09 PM   #59
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by guy
Not disagreeing that the media hypes up Jordan. I just think it completely ridiculous and hysterical that people like you think that media outlets conspire

Who said that? A Jordan fan in this thread pointed out a story comparing Durant to Wilt would not sell as much as comparing Durant to Jordan. Is there a big, bad conspiracy here? No, but there is a clear incentive to elevate Jordan for ratings purposes. Giving the false appearance that Jordan has this record was a means to that end. No one thinks ESPN had a meeting last night deciding how to blow Jordan.

Quote:
We don't have any footage of Wilt's 100. So, of course ESPN is going to show the stuff they can.

Kareem sinks a game winner in one of the greatest finals games ever--a double OT game--in Game 6 of the NBA finals in 74' to keep his team alive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcrRQw3njdU How many times have you seen this on ESPN?
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:10 PM   #60
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Jordan has been the most influential basketball player in the last 2 decades. With todays media, the hype that he gets its understandable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts
Most consecutive 50 point games
7 by Wilt Chamberlain, from December 16, 1961 to December 29, 1961
Most consecutive 40 point games
14 by Wilt Chamberlain, from December 8, 1961 to December 30, 1961
14 by Wilt Chamberlain, from January 11, 1962 to February 1, 1962[6]
Most consecutive 30 point games
65 by Wilt Chamberlain, from November 4, 1961 to February 22, 1962
Most consecutive 20 point games
126 by Wilt Chamberlain, from October 19, 1961 to January 19, 1963

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_records
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