Does anyone in here actually think MJ isn't the GOAT?

[ClipperRevival]

1. Kareem

2. Magic

3. Russell

4. LeBron

5. Jordan

6. Shaq

7. Bird

8. Wilt

9. Hakeem

10. Duncan


#donthate

Lol. You are the ultimate Bron fan. Your list is a joke. Bron over MJ? Lol.

[ClipperRevival]

Jordan isn't even top 10, and there's no shame in that. He was still a great player. I'm just amazed at what a great job the media has done to fuel his legend.

How old are you? My guess is about 10.

[KungFuJoe]

MJ and it's pretty clear in my book. And yes I watched him play. I was born in the 70s.

He's got all the accolades. Won in college and pros. Kareem had accolades and longevity but Jordan was no Walton. He played long enough and at a high enough level that no one doubts he could have been one of the best for many many more years.

Best offensive and defensive player. No weaknesses. Charisma and marketability. Dunk contest champ. Kids emulated him. Unstoppable when it counted.

He's the one guy that you could make an argument for in nearly every single category based on his size and position.

[dubeta]

Lol. You are the ultimate Bron fan. Your list is a joke. Bron over MJ? Lol.

Nah bro Jordan fan first and foremost, and I respect the hell out of MJ, but you have to look at his career in context. The 90's surrounded by the 2nd best player in the era (Pippen) as his teammate as well as greatest coach Phil Jackson, allowed him to win.

- No other top tier wings

- Many watered down expansion-teams (Today has a legit 30 teams)

- Bulls were successful with or without Jordan (1994)

- Jordan was not successful with or without Phil and Scottie

- Not much success post 2000- (didnt make playoffs)

I love MJ, but we need to put his career in perspective, I can't reasonably put him more than #5 all time

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

MJ and it's pretty clear in my book. And yes I watched him play. I was born in the 70s.

He's got all the accolades. Won in college and pros. Kareem had accolades and longevity but Jordan was no Walton. He played long enough and at a high enough level that no one doubts he could have been one of the best for many many more years.

Best offensive and defensive player. No weaknesses. Charisma and marketability. Dunk contest champ. Kids emulated him. Unstoppable when it counted.

He's the one guy that you could make an argument for in nearly every single category based on his size and position.

Best defensive guard of his time yes, not close to best defensive player.

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing sht on him defensively. Payton and Pippen were arguably better too

[ClipperRevival]

Nah bro Jordan fan first and foremost, and I respect the hell out of MJ, but you have to look at his career in context. The 90's surrounded by the 2nd best player in the era (Pippen) as his teammate as well as greatest coach Phil Jackson, allowed him to win.

- No other top tier wings

- Many watered down expansion-teams (Today has a legit 30 teams)

- Bulls were successful with or without Jordan (1994)

- Jordan was not successful with or without Phil and Scottie

- Not much success post 2000- (didnt make playoffs)

I love MJ, but we need to put his career in perspective, I can't reasonably put him more than #5 all time

Do you realize there are people on this board that started watching bball starting in the 80's who try to keep it real? And when we read what you just typed, you make yourself look like an idiot. Really man, just check yourself. This is the big leagues. You think your bullshit will fly with the veterans of the game?

[c5terror]

KAJ? Sure, I can give you that. But besides those two, does anyone in here pick another GOAT over those two? If so, who? I am curious to know if anyone seriously thinks there is another GOAT besides those two. Please keep it constructive and objective.

Yes, the one who have bill or kareem as their GOAT. That makes MJ ranking in about 2 or 3.

[jlip]

The opinion that MJ is the "clear" GOAT is strongest amongst those between the ages 25-45. For those older than that, players such as Russell, Wilt, and Kareem tend to appear in the conversation more.

[KungFuJoe]

Best defensive guard of his time yes, not close to best defensive player.

Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing sht on him defensively. Payton and Pippen were arguably better too

Yeah but that's th thing. You can find players that might be better than him at ONE thing. Carter was a better dunker. But he excelled at everything. Payton was better defensively. MJ was better at everything else.

[COnDEMnED]

Jordan fan here, but no I don't think he's the clear cut GOAT

You forget to switch accounts short dick rider?

[LAZERUSS]

I am sorry but Wilt has no case. Peak dominance does not gurantee you GOAT status. He didn't win when it mattered. I know you are the biggest Wilt fan and I think he gets underrated by the younger gen but he has no case over MJ or KAJ when you look at the entire body of work.

Magic has no case. Even ask Magic himself, he will tell you MJ was greater. Also, he was not very good on D.

Same with Russell. He couldn't dominate you offensively. I am sorry but if you want to be GOAT, especially as a big, you need to be dominant on both ends. Greatest winner without taking into context? Of course. But GOAT? Lol.

First of all, MAGIC is the greatest "winner" in NBA history. PERIOD. True, Russell won more rings, but Magic's career winning percentage is #1. Furthermore, Magic went to NINE Finals, winning FIVE of them, in the toughest era in NBA history.

I have said it before, but if you move MJ's 90's Bulls into the 80's, he is not winning six rings. Hell, he might not have won any.

I am sorry but if you want to be GOAT, especially as a big, you need to be dominant on both ends.

And no other player in NBA HISTORY, dominated at BOTH ends of the floor like Chamberlain. Russell is generally regarded as the GOAT defensive player in NBA history, yet, aside from Russell, Chamberlain has the next two highest Defensive Win Share seasons in NBA history. And H2H, Wilt reduced Russell's efficiency, far more than Russell did his. And blocked shots? Chamberlain was easily the greatest shot-blocker in NBA history. Even in their careers H2H's, Wilt has twice as many known blocks as Russell.

Defense?

How about this post-season defense...

Wilt's post-season FG% allowed:

59-60:

Kerr regular season FG% against the league: .392
Kerr against Wilt in the playoffs: .294

Dierking regular season FG%: .365
Dierking vs Wilt in the post-season: .333

Russell regular season: .467
Russell vs. Wilt in the post-season: .446


60-61:

Kerr regular season: .397
Kerr vs Wilt: .321

Halbrook regular season: .335
Halbrook vs Wilt: .387


61-62:

Kerr regular season: .443
Kerr vs. Wilt: .376

Russell regular season: .457
Russell vs Wilt: .399


63-64:

Beaty regular season: .444
Beaty vs. Wilt: .520

Russell regular season: .433
Russell vs. Wilt: .386


64-65:

Embry regular season: .456
Embry vs Wilt: .438

Russell regular season: .438
Russell vs. Wilt: .446


65-66:

Russell regular season: .415
Russell vs. Wilt: .424


66-67:

Dierking regular season: .399
Dierking vs Wilt: .427

Russell regular season: .454
Russell vs. Wilt: .358

Thurmond regular season: .437
Thurmond vs. Wilt: .343


67-68:

Bellamy regular season: .541
Bellamy vs. Wilt: .421

Russell regular season: .425
Russell vs. Wilt: .440


68-69:

Thurmond regular season: .410
Thurmond vs Wilt: .392

Beaty regular season: .470
Beaty vs. Wilt: .383

Russell regular season: .433
Russell vs. Wilt: .397


69-70:

Walk regular season: .470
Walk vs Wilt: .395

Fox regular season: .524
Fox vs Wilt: .362

Bellamy regular season: .523
Bellamy vs Wilt: .456

Reed regular season: .507
Reed vs Wilt: .483


70-71:

Boerwinkle regular season: .485
Boerwinkle vs Wilt: .463

Fox regular season: .458
Fox vs Wilt: .434

Kareem regular season: .577
Kareem vs Wilt: .481


71-72:

Ray regular season: .499
Ray vs Wilt: .529

Kareem regular season: .574
Kareem vs Wilt: .457

Lucas regular season: .512
Lucas vs Wilt: .500


72-73:

Awtry regular season: .480
Awtry vs Wilt: .542

Thurmond regular season: .446
Thurmond vs Wilt: .373

Reed regular season: .474
Reed vs Wilt: .493

And, how many GOATs, aside from Magic, have led the league in assists? And also led the post-season in apg?

And before someone mentions Wilt's Post-season "decline", in Wilt's "scoring" seasons (of which he missed the entire playoffs in a year in which he averaged 45 ppg), he averaged 33 ppg, 27 rpg, 4 apg, and shot nearly 10% above the post-season league average (.505 in post-seasons that shot about .420 in the same span.)

Carry thru to his peak, in '67, and Wilt averaged 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, and shot .515 (in post-seasons that shot about .425.) Add in a minimum of 8+ bpg, and you have, BY FAR, the most dominant player at BOTH ENDS in NBA history.

And finally...Russell is the GOAT champion...winning 11 rings in his 13 seasons. BUT, Chamberlain, with infrior, to far inferior rosters, nearly beat him in four game seven (losing by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) AND, when he finally had a roster that was the equal of Russell's, and healthy, he and his Sixers destroyed Russell's eight-time defending, and 60-21, Celtics in a near sweep.

John Wooden said it best...had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters, and coaches, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

Now, where would you rank Chamberlain with between 7-11 rings?


Oh, and don't forget the RECORD BOOK. Chamberlain literally holds HUNDREDS, and likely THOUSANDS of NBA RECORDS, including MANY post-season records.

His domination was so overwhelming that the league had to create MULTIPLE RULES in an attempt to curtail his mass destruction of his peers.

To say that Wilt has NO CASE as a GOAT is pure IDIOCY.

[gts]

I have Kareem at 1A and MJ 1B

[Rocketswin2013]

Why do you think 2009 LeBron is better than 2012 LeBron (post game, better defense/maturity)?

His strengths covered up his weaknesses. His strengths overwhelmed the league. He was literally unstoppable. The amount of pressure he put on opposing defenders was absurd. I don't think people understand just how explosive and athletic he was. Probably the most explosive and athletic wing player ever.

Also, his clutchness was off-the-charts. He was never as hungry as he was in 2009. He seemed like Scottie Pippen on Bane venom. That's the only comparison I can make. No one else was like him.

And there's this...

[QUOTE]I already made a thread before on Shaq's case for the GOAT peak, now here is LeBron 2009's case for the GOAT peak. I'll highlight his stats, defense, team success, playoffs, clutch, 4th quarter, and teammates to show why he has a case for the GOAT peak.


Stats:
28-8-7, .591 TS%, 9.3 RAPM (1st)

31.7 PER (4th all-time), .318 WS/48 (6th all-time)

LeBron led his team in points, assists, rebounds, blocks, and steals becoming only the 4th player in history to accomplish that feat.

Team Success:
66-16 (.805)
+8.68 SRS (8.83 when LeBron played, 6th in the 3 point era)
112.4 Offensive Rating
102.4 Defensive Rating
+10.0 efficiency differential (4th in NBA history)

On court: +15.0
Off court: -6.2 off court (equivalent to this year

[3ball]

In 2009, Bron was probably the most explosive and athletic wing player ever.

lebron is an average leaper off two feet - everyone knows this..

don't make me start posting GIFs of him barely jumping over a phone book off two feet, and then comparing that to MJ flying.

MJ was an elite leaper off one or two feet, whereas Lebron is only elite off one foot.. MJ was also much quicker.. Alot of guys are actually
.

[Rocketswin2013]

lebron is an average leaper off two feet - everyone knows this..

don't make me start posting GIFs of him barely jumping over a phone book off two feet, and then comparing that to MJ flying.

MJ was an elite leaper off one or two feet, whereas Lebron is only elite off one foot.. MJ was also much quicker.. Alot of guys are actually
.

Yes, your only urge is to spam gifs and Jordan propaganda. Surprising.

I honestly don't care enough about something small like that. I said probably, btw. I had others in mind.

Bottom line is, I'd take 2009 James over any Jordan because I believe he was better than MJ's best. Specifically defensively, and getting to the rim. It's that simple. If someone took Jordan? Obviously I wouldn't care. I was 50/50 about this before. I watched some of those games and now I'm 60/40 in favor of LeBron. I don't think it's a blowout or anything like some people. I actually think it's really close, but LeBron's postseason was unprecedented in some ways.