Team assist rankings for Jordan and Lebron's teams

[3ball]

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Bulls 1985:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 20th...................................... Cavs 2004:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 8th
Bulls 1986:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 19th...................................... Cavs 2005:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 6th
Bulls 1987:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 12th...................................... Cavs 2006:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 24th
Bulls 1988:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 9th....................................... Cavs 2007:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15th
Bulls 1989:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 6th....................................... Cavs 2008:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 25th
Bulls 1990:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 7th....................................... Cavs 2009:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 20th
Bulls 1991:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 4th....................................... Cavs 2010:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 6th
Bulls 1992:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 3rd....................................... Heat 2011:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 26th
Bulls 1993:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 6th....................................... Heat 2012:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 21st
Bulls 1996:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 5th....................................... Heat 2013:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 7th
Bulls 1997:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2nd...................................... Heat 2014:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 11th
Bulls 1998:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 7th....................................... Cavs 2015:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 10th
[COLOR="White"].................................................. .........[/COLOR] Cavs 2016:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR][color="white"].[/color] 13th
__________________________[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR]___________________________
[COLOR="Red"]7.7 average rank for MJ's teams[/COLOR][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] [COLOR="Orange"]14.8 average rank for Lebron's teams[/COLOR]


Conclusion: Lebron's teams ranked in the top 10 only 4 of 13 seasons, while Jordan's teams were in the top 10 for 9 of 12 seasons (9 straight seasons after 1987).. This is significant, since championship teams are nearly always ranked among the top 10 in assists.

And we know WHY Lebron's teams rank so poorly at passing.. It's statistical fact that every key teammate that Lebron had during his career saw their APG and assist percentage lowered alongside him, while their assisted rate (play-finishing) increased - he turns teammates into play-finishers, rather than allowing them to retain their maximum playmaking capability.

To offset his reduction of teammate stats (APG and PPG), Lebron must rely on excessive supporting talent (team-hopping).. Furthermore, the lack of passing and chemistry results in a brand of basketball that usually can't succeed at the highest level (3/7), which again, necessitates extra supporting talent to win (team-hopping).

Otoh, Jordan's teammates saw their assists INCREASE alongside him, mainly because Jordan played OFF-BALL, and therefore was an assist reservoir for teammates that was worth up to 33.5 ppg worth of assists (Jordan's playoff scoring average)..

Ultimately, Jordan's off-ball style resulted in superior passing and brand of basketball that could consistently succeed at the highest level (6/6).. The superior brand of basketball that Jordan's game enabled meant that he didn't need excessive supporting talent to win (he never team-hopped, and won 6 rings with just 1 all-star teammate, compared to 6 all-star teammates for Lebron and 2 team-hops).
.

[aj1987]

Are you telling me that the dude who played under the GOAT coach played in a better offensive system? Shocking!

[Dray n Klay]

How much did those assists help in avoiding 1-9?

[3ball]

Are you telling me that the dude who played under the GOAT coach played in a better offensive system? Shocking!

the triangle is a shit system - just ask the knicks and the many other teams that have tried it and embarrassingly failed.

the triangle only works if you have a goat post presence (you know, someone who can score without dribbling much), such as MJ, Shaq or Kobe/Pau.. btw, Jordan's teams ranked in top 10 for assists the 2 seasons BEFORE Phil ever got there, so your argument fails on many levels.

also, phil was a first-time, nobody coach when he took over in 1990, just like mike brown was for lebron.. and phil simply continued the progression the bulls had been on under doug collins - he lost in 7 games to the pistons in 1990, after collins lost in 6 in 1989, and 5 in 1988.
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[Meticode]

What was the assist per game for each year/team?

[Smoke117]

A new 3ball thread! Didn't read it...but, nice.

[3ball]

What was the assist per game for each year/team?

Jordan's teams had higher APG every year.

However, it's irrelevant because they played in two different eras that had vastly different styles of play (no spacing and paint-camping... versus today's spacing and open paints/defensive 3.. obviously, it's easier to pass WITH spacing, than without)

So the APG stats are irrelevant due to the different eras and playing style.. Instead, the teams' rankings relative to the league is what's important.. But by either measure, Jordan's teams were vastly superior passing teams than Lebron's, due to the reasons stated in the OP.

[scm5]

Honestly, Lebron would be such a beast and would probably extend his career if he stopped being so ball dominant. He's a beast off the ball when he wants to be. I think it's time to transition Kyrie into the primary playmaker after this season.

[Bankaii]

So you're saying playing in the GOAT system along another top 30 GOAT that happens to be an equal, or even better playmaker, in Pippen for most of his career was more effective than Lebron being the system and only playing with another playmaker for 4 years.

Never would've guessed

[Smoke117]

So you're saying playing in the GOAT system along another top 30 GOAT that happens to be an equal, or even better playmaker, in Pippen for most of his career was more effective than Lebron being the system and only playing with another playmaker for 4 years.

Never would've guessed

Trying to reason with members of the Jordan cult...that's adorable.

[3ball]

Honestly, Lebron would be such a beast and would probably extend his career if he stopped being so ball dominant. He's a beast off the ball when he wants to be. I think it's time to transition Kyrie into the primary playmaker after this season.

[COLOR="Navy"]The stats show that Lebron ranks in the bottom quarter of the league for off-ball plays as defined and tracked by nba.com, which includes "spot-ups", "off-screen", and "cuts":
[/COLOR]
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#...ort=Time&dir=1


Also, Lebron ranks in the bottom third of the league in post-ups - he posts up only 11.5% of the time with a 0.79 PPP (that's only better than 35% of the league), compared to 10.5% for Durant at 0.97 PPP (better than 68% of the league)..

At least Durant is a good shooter so the turnaround is there all day, whereas Lebron has nothing he can go to on the block other than the easily-stopped and gameplanned for bully-ball.. So no, Lebron does NOT have off-ball ability.. No moves, no smarts, just size.

[AussieSteve]

Yet Lebron averaged more assists than Jordan. So what you've proved is that Jordan was assisted more than Lebron. Lebron had to create his own shot more because he was in a lesser offensive system. Imagne what Lebron would have achieved if he was in the Phil Jackson system.

[Meticode]

Jordan's teams had higher APG every year.

However, it's irrelevant because they played in two different eras that had vastly different styles of play (no spacing and paint-camping... versus today's spacing and open paints/defensive 3.. obviously, it's easier to pass WITH spacing, than without)

So the APG stats are irrelevant due to the different eras and playing style.. Instead, the teams' rankings relative to the league is what's important.. But by either measure, Jordan's teams were vastly superior passing teams than Lebron's, due to the reasons stated in the OP.

This is exactly what I wanted you to post. In the end it just means nothing. You're cherry picking to undermine another team.

[Smoke117]

This is exactly what I wanted you to post. In the end it just means nothing. You're cherry picking to undermine another team.

Player you mean...he doesn't care about teams...this revolves entirely around Jordan and Lebron as everything he post does.

[AussieSteve]

Player you mean...he doesn't care about teams...this revolves entirely around Jordan and Lebron as everything he post does.

If anything i feel like he has made an argument in favor of lebron. Jordan had the benefit of a great offensive system and was assisted far more than lebron. Lebron assisted more and so he created more oportunities for others, but he was assisted less so also had to create his own scoring oportunities more.