Why I think Michael Jordan was Overrated

[Bush4Ever]

Who is this moron who keeps copying and pasting from some website?

I don't think this dude gets my point about Jordan..

Ball Hog. Which inflated his scoring statistics. I hold his scoring AGAINST HIM.

It's the reason I think the Bulls were almost as good without him. Because they were able to share the ball more, instead of one player being a ball hog and taking all the shots.

His scoring dominance is a NEGATIVE in my mind. Without Jordan, as a team the Bulls had and almost exact same FG%..which goes to show that MJ really didn't contribute too much to the Bulls making more shots. Other players were just as capable of making their open shots as Jordan was of making his difficult shots.

[DonDadda59]

Why does every body forget to mention that they added tony and kerr.

Exactly. The team was deeper than the '93 team. They added Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr while Jordan was swinging a bat. They overacheived for a season, lost in the second round. They lost Horace, were a .500 team before Jordan came back an carried them to the playoffs. They replaced Grant w/ Rodman and all Jordan could muster with this new roster was to lead them to the best record in the history of the league and another 3 straight championships (3 Finals MVPs to go along w/ them). He's overrated because the new squad won 2 less games then the '93 team? Well is he overrated for turning a 55-win second round team into a 72-win championship winner?

Yeah, they were so much better without him

[elementally morale]

Have you ever considered writing for ESPN?

[Sir Charles]

If your first point is true, then that's a good one. Source?

Win shares is calculated very similar to PER, and takes into account box score statistics to base its theories on. Not bad, but has many fallacies and I don't think it's a good representation of actual win shares..just well named.

Jordan was a BALL HOG, and therefore his statistics are inflated.

[COLOR="Red"]I would love to have a real adjusted plus/minus on Jordan's career. [/COLOR]Unfortunetaly we don't have one.

Even though Jordan always had Great Defensive and All Around Teams 1988 and beyond (compared to other greats who didn`t like Barkley, early Garnett, and some others)...this is his...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

"statistical plus/minus,” which is just a regression of pure adjusted +/- on the conventional boxscore stats. In that post, I looked into the possibility of predicting the following season using a weighted average of the 3 previous seasons’ SPM scores, but I realize that I sort of skimmed over the statistical +/- metric itself — what are its strengths and weaknesses? What kind of players does it overrate and underrate?


In an effort to better understand the metric and answer these questions, I calculated the career leaders in SPM (combined NBA + ABA, minimum 15,000 career MP) through last Saturday’s games. Here’s the list:


Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------

[COLOR="Red"]michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79[/COLOR]
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]larrybird F 897 34443 8.81[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21[/COLOR]
bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87
[COLOR="Black"]clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Green"]oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Sienna"]hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50[/COLOR]
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]timduncan F 877 32481 7.30[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Sienna"]tracymcgrady F 784 27463 7.12[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]kevingarnett F 1051 39570 6.91[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Indigo"]boblanier C 959 32103 6.24[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]kobebryant G 921 33584 6.22[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]jerrywest G 932 36571 6.17[/COLOR]
[COLOR="red"]bobbyjones F 941 25728 6.16
conniehawkins F 616 22232 6.08[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]dirknowitzki F 812 29663 5.97[/COLOR]
neiljohnston C 516 18298 5.94
[COLOR="Red"]vincecarter G 752 28333 5.88[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]billrussell C 963 40726 5.85[/COLOR]
larrynance F 920 30697 5.74
dolphschayes F 866 29800 5.65
[COLOR="Navy"]johnstockton G 1504 47764 5.63[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Orange"]rickbarry F 1020 38153 5.56[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]waltfrazier G 825 30965 5.45[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]paulpierce F 788 29570 5.30[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]artisgilmore C 1329 47150 5.16[/COLOR]
docrivers G 864 23567 5.16
alvinrobertson G 779 24669 5.13
[COLOR="Sienna"]d.wilkins F 1074 38113 5.10[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]billycunningham F 770 26844 5.09
scottiepippen F 1178 41069 4.97[/COLOR]
booutlaw F 914 20750 4.91
eltonbrand F 643 24421 4.87
gilbertarenas G 431 16115 4.80
waltbellamy C 1043 38940 4.72
chriswebber F 831 30847 4.71
marquesjohnson F 691 23694 4.65
sidneymoncrief G 767 23150 4.60
rogerbrown F 605 21454 4.57
wesunseld C 984 35832 4.56
adriandantley F 955 34151 4.55
natemcmillan G 796 20462 4.53
jerrylucas F 829 32131 4.43
larryjones G 551 18956 4.43
fatlever G 752 23814 4.33
granthill F 759 27209 4.27
georgemcginnis F 842 28179 4.26
shawnmarion F 720 27136 4.23
m.r.richardson G 556 18589 4.22
eddiejones F 954 32777 4.21
barondavis G 649 22998 4.17
alleniverson G 880 36589 4.10
jasonkidd G 1081 40211 4.10
paugasol F 557 19806 4.10
alvanadams C 988 27203 4.04
johndrew F 739 21828 3.97
georgegervin G 1060 35597 3.87
cliffhagan F 839 24074 3.84
danissel C 1218 41784 3.82
harrygallatin F 496 15813 3.81
stevefrancis G 576 21632 3.79
patrickewing C 1183 40594 3.79
edmacauley C 506 18071 3.75
chaunceybillups G 810 25891 3.73
baileyhowell F 951 30627 3.70
benwallace C 897 27787 3.66
rayallen G 919 34244 3.65
reggiemiller G 1389 47621 3.61
brentbarry G 893 23447 3.61
vladedivac C 1134 33838 3.53
shanebattier F 591 19740 3.48
ronartest G 577 20024 3.45
garypayton G 1335 47117 3.44
mookieblaylock G 889 31026 3.34
bobmcadoo C 852 28327 3.32
cedricmaxwell F 835 23769 3.31
marcuscamby C 738 22742 3.30
jeffhornacek G 1077 33964 3.28
johnsalley F 748 16524 3.28
chrismullin F 986 32163 3.22
clydelovellette C 704 19075 3.20
markaguirre F 923 27730 3.18
mauricecheeks G 1101 34845 3.16
kevinmchale F 971 30118 3.10
kevinjohnson G 735 25061 3.10
jacksikma C 1107 36943 3.04
bradmiller C 684 20685 3.01
cliffordray C 784 19940 2.99
davidthompson G 592 19406 2.98
warrenjabali G 447 15264 2.98
alonzomourning C 838 25976 2.94
paulpressey G 724 19659 2.93
chrisbosh F 414 15341 2.91
georgeyardley F 472 15767 2.91
johnhavlicek F 1270 46471 2.90
vernmikkelsen F 567 18443 2.88
richkelley C 814 17711 2.88
williewise F 552 18438 2.87
davecowens C 766 29565 2.86
herseyhawkins G 983 32034 2.76
tomgola G 698 22529 2.76
jimeakins C 767 19013 2.73
pennyhardaway G 704 23713 2.70
danmajerle G 955 30206 2.69

[Jinxed]

Exactly. The team was deeper than the '93 team. They added Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr while Jordan was swinging a bat. They overacheived for a season, lost in the second round. They lost Horace, were a .500 team before Jordan came back an carried them to the playoffs. They replaced Grant w/ Rodman and all Jordan could muster with this new roster was to lead them to the best record in the history of the league and another 3 straight championships (3 Finals MVPs to go along w/ them). He's overrated because the new squad won 2 less games then the '93 team? Well is he overrated for turning a 55-win second tound team into a 72-win championship winner?

Yeah, they were so much better without him

In 1995-1996 they added RODMAN.. the best rebounder ...average 15 boards a game... That's unbelievable ..and one of the best defenders in the league.. Kukoc was just getting better and so was Kerr.

Kerr averaged 8ppg in 24 minutes in 1994 and and Toni average 10 in 24mpg in his rookie season. Not exactly stellar numbers. They were bench players, with Toni only starting 8 games and Kerr starting none.

[bruceblitz]

In 1995-1996 they added RODMAN.. the best rebounder ...average 15 boards a game... That's unbelievable ..and one of the best defenders in the league.. Kukoc was just getting better and so was Kerr.

Kerr averaged 8ppg in 24 minutes in 1994 and and Toni average 10 in 24mpg in his rookie season. Not exactly stellar numbers. They were bench players, with Toni only starting 8 games and Kerr starting none.

So according to your logic, Jordan's great scoring, greatest scorer ever, should have hindered the team, why didn't they win a title without him you flaming ******?

[Jinxed]

Sir Charles...


Statistical plus/minus is based on BOX SCORE STATS...and doesn't actually use plus/minus stats at all..as they weren't kept until recent years.

It's just an ESTIMATE of what adjusted plus/minus might look like if they kept it back then.. The authors freely admits there are many problems with it.

but Like i said Jordan's box score stats are inflated.

[GOBB]

You must be an idiot. First of all, that's my homework that I posted in other threads on here, to other morons just like yourself. You jackass. You clearly didn't watch Michael Jordan and maybe you should try becoming a fan of the game of tennis or water polo if you think Jordan wasn't the greatest basketball player to ever play the game of basketball. Dumb ass mother ****er!

1. Your .gif shows no "swish", so i guess like most of your argument wins its all in your head.

2. Why are you insulting the poster in such a manner? I mean i can point out other posts in this thread where you did it some more. Didnt you cry, complain when I responded to you in a similar manner? Hypocritical much?

3. Why are you so insecure about MJ's legacy. Its not even your legacy. MJ if he met you would tell you to relax because he feels he isnt the greatest to ever play. While the reach around by you is a great feel. He feels he is one of the best to ever do it. His words. I'm sure you'll play Dr. Phil and tell us what he meant inside. Copy and paste that too or you'll pass?

4. Guy is an obvious troll here to rile people like you up. He won, you lost. The more you reply and celebrating victories "I shut down your thread!" the more you look like an idiot. Maybe you could take your own advice and get a life? Stop taking ISH so serious? This is just me throwing back your advice at you. Its funny how posters here type things and NEVER apply it to themselves. You should try it, maybe you arent here posting .gifs claiming you hit a buzzer beater because you defeated a troll.

[bruceblitz]

In 1995-1996 they added RODMAN.. the best rebounder ...average 15 boards a game... That's unbelievable ..and one of the best defenders in the league.. Kukoc was just getting better and so was Kerr.

Kerr averaged 8ppg in 24 minutes in 1994 and and Toni average 10 in 24mpg in his rookie season. Not exactly stellar numbers. They were bench players, with Toni only starting 8 games and Kerr starting none.

[bruceblitz]

1. Your .gif shows no "swish", so i guess like most of your argument wins its all in your head.

2. Why are you insulting the poster in such a manner? I mean i can point out other posts in this thread where you did it some more. Didnt you cry, complain when I responded to you in a similar manner? Hypocritical much?

3. Why are you so insecure about MJ's legacy. Its not even your legacy. MJ if he met you would tell you to relax because he feels he isnt the greatest to ever play. While the reach around by you is a great feel. He feels he is one of the best to ever do it. His words. I'm sure you'll play Dr. Phil and tell us what he meant inside. Copy and paste that too or you'll pass?

4. Guy is an obvious troll here to rile people like you up. He won, you lost. The more you reply and celebrating victories "I shut down your thread!" the more you look like an idiot. Maybe you could take your own advice and get a life? Stop taking ISH so serious? This is just me throwing back your advice at you. Its funny how posters here type things and NEVER apply it to themselves. You should try it, maybe you arent here posting .gifs claiming you hit a buzzer beater because you defeated a troll.

[Jinxed]

So according to your logic, Jordan's great scoring, greatest scorer ever, should have hindered the team, why didn't they win a title without him you flaming ******?

Overall it was a SLIGHT positive...as in a few game difference...but the Bulls probably would have been even better if Jordan scored in the 25 point range and took about 5-6 less shots a game. He took an incredible amount of difficult shots, shots that he should have passed on and let his teammates take.

[nbastatus]

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986
(1st ranked D)

1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988
(5th ranked D)

1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989
(2cnd ranked D)

1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990
(19th ranked D)

1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991
(14th ranked D)

1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992
(24th ranked D)

1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993
(9th ranked D)

1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995
(9th ranked D)

1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996
(3rd ranked D)

1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997
(13th ranked D)

1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998
(16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES SERIES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
Even more important, Jordan was the main target of these defenses the ENTIRE TIME.


69 Cleveland OT Cleveland 3/28/90
64 Orlando OT Chicago 1/16/93
63 Boston 2OT Boston (Playoffs) * 4/20/86 against #1 rated defense that year
Jordan has the highest point total against a #1 rated defense in league history
in the playoffs no less
61 Detroit OT Detroit 3/4/87
61 Atlanta Chicago 4/16/87
59 Detroit Detroit 3/3/88
58 New Jersey Chicago 2/6/87
57 Washington Chicago 12/23/92
56 Philadelphia Chicago 3/24/87
56 Miami Miami (Playoffs) 4/29/92
55 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/1/88
55 Phoenix Chicago (Playoffs) 6/16/93
55 New York New York 3/28/95
55 Washington Washington (Playoffs) 4/30/97
54 L.A. Lakers Los Angeles 11/20/92
54 Cleveland Chicago 11/3/89
54 New York Chicago (Playoffs) 5/31/93
53 Portland Chicago 1/8/87
53 Indiana Chicago 4/12/87
53 Phoenix Chicago 1/21/89
53 Detroit Chicago 3/7/96
52 Cleveland Chicago 12/17/87
52 Portland Chicago 2/26/88
52 Boston Boston 11/9/88
52 Philadelphia Philadelphia 11/16/88
52 Denver Denver 11/26/88
52 Orlando Orlando 12/20/89
52 Charlotte Chicago 3/12/93
51 New Orleans Washington 12/29/01
51 Washington Washington 3/19/92
51 New York Chicago 1/21/97
50 New York New York 11/1/86
50 Milwaukee Milwaukee 4/13/87
50 Boston Chicago 3/18/88
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 4/28/88
50 Milwaukee Chicago 2/16/89
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/5/89
50 Denver Chicago 3/24/92
50 Miami Miami 11/6/96
Those are Jordan's 50 point games, notice how many of them came in the PLAYOFFS. Notice how many came against great defenses and great teams. Also Jordan was the main focus of each defense he faced. That's very important.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career. Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.

[nbastatus]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles]Even though Jordan always had Great Defensive and All Around Teams 1988 and beyond (compared to other greats who didn`t like Barkley, early Garnett, and some others)...this is his...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

[B]"statistical plus/minus,

[Mark Jackson]

1. Your .gif shows no "swish", so i guess like most of your argument wins its all in your head.

2. Why are you insulting the poster in such a manner? I mean i can point out other posts in this thread where you did it some more. Didnt you cry, complain when I responded to you in a similar manner? Hypocritical much?

3. Why are you so insecure about MJ's legacy. Its not even your legacy. MJ if he met you would tell you to relax because he feels he isnt the greatest to ever play. While the reach around by you is a great feel. He feels he is one of the best to ever do it. His words. I'm sure you'll play Dr. Phil and tell us what he meant inside. Copy and paste that too or you'll pass?

4. Guy is an obvious troll here to rile people like you up. He won, you lost. The more you reply and celebrating victories "I shut down your thread!" the more you look like an idiot. Maybe you could take your own advice and get a life? Stop taking ISH so serious? This is just me throwing back your advice at you. Its funny how posters here type things and NEVER apply it to themselves. You should try it, maybe you arent here posting .gifs claiming you hit a buzzer beater because you defeated a troll.

Talk about an reality check. Straight ether on that guy.

[ProfessorMurder]

Why I think the OP is a retard:

He thinks Jordan, the best player to ever play the game of basketball... Is overrated!

You stupid f*ck.