Why I think Michael Jordan was Overrated

[Jinxed]

If Lebron James were to get injured this off-season or go play baseball, how many games do you think the Cavaliers would win next year....think about it for a second...40? 45 tops? What if the Heat didn't have Wade? or the Hornets didn't have CP3...how many less games would these teams win next year? Surely about 15-20 right? Agree with me so far?

Well in 1992-1993 the Chicago Bulls won the NBA title. They went 57-25. After the season Jordan left to go play baseball.

The next year without Jordan, the Chicago Bulls went 55-27. That's only two less games they won! The only major addition they had to their team was Toni Kukoc, who averaged 10 points in 24mpg as a rookie.

In the playoffs they would lose to the Knicks in 7 games. Who in turn lost to the Rockets in 7 games. They were a championship level team, a rebound here and a foul call there that would have gone their way and they may just have won it all.

Jordan had an AMAZING supporting cast for all his championship runs.

In 1996 when he came back for the full season, they also added Rodman..giving them four all star level players ..jordan,pippen,rodman and kukoc to go along with perfect roll players and the best coach in the game.

There is a psychological principle that states the more times you here someone's name, the more you will like them. The more times you hear Jordan the better you think he is. Jordan was the first huge marketing revelation in the NBA with Nike and Gatorade and at a time when the game was going global. His name, face and image were everywhere, at an unprecedented level, and this added to his mystique and made people think he was better than he was.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.

[halffttime]

you're definitely right.. i mean 10 scoring titles, 5 mvps, 6 final mvps, 1 dpoy, 6 championships, and 11 all-nba's aren't thaaaat great.. just your average nba career..

[shortlunatic]

i have one comment to all that make the poor decision to open this thread like i did...plz dnt respond...the more we ignore, the faster this page will sink to the second page and be forgotten forever...

[DonDadda59]

Someone murk this clown please, I'm really tired of rehashing the same info to these misinformed 12 year olds

[Kiarip]

I agree with the spirit of this.

I feel like people that say things like "O Jordan was on a whole other level from today's top players" are just nostalgic idiots.

First of all, it was a different game in the 90s. Also, he wasn't better than today's top players completely. There's obviously things he was worse at, and some things he was better at... He may even really be the best so far, but he's not a head above everyone all-time, that's just probabalistically impossible considering the popularity of basketball.

[bruceblitz]

If Lebron James were to get injured this off-season or go play baseball, how many games do you think the Cavaliers would win next year....think about it for a second...40? 45 tops? What if the Heat didn't have Wade? or the Hornets didn't have CP3...how many less games would these teams win next year? Surely about 15-20 right? Agree with me so far?

Well in 1992-1993 the Chicago Bulls won the NBA title. They went 57-25. After the season Jordan left to go play baseball.

The next year without Jordan, the Chicago Bulls went 55-27. That's only two less games they won! The only major addition they had to their team was Toni Kukoc, who averaged 10 points in 24mpg as a rookie.

In the playoffs they would lose to the Knicks in 7 games. Who in turn lost to the Rockets in 7 games. They were a championship level team, a rebound here and a foul call there that would have gone their way and they may just have won it all.

Jordan had an AMAZING supporting cast for all his championship runs.

In 1996 when he came back for the full season, they also added Rodman..giving them four all star level players ..jordan,pippen,rodman and kukoc to go along with perfect roll players and the best coach in the game.

There is a psychological principle that states the more times you here someone's name, the more you will like them. The more times you hear Jordan the better you think he is. Jordan was the first huge marketing revelation in the NBA with Nike and Gatorade and at a time when the game was going global. His name, face and image were everywhere, at an unprecedented level, and this added to his mystique and made people think he was better than he was.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't great, he was. I'm not even saying he wasn't the best ever. He may have been. All I'm saying is that I don't think he's as good as everyone thinks he was.

1991 Lakers = ranked 5th in defense
1992 Blazers = ranked 2nd in defense
1993 Suns = ranked 9th in defense
1996 Sonics = ranked 2cnd in defense
1997 Jazz = 9th in defense
1998 Jazz = 16th in defense

Jordan faced 3 top 5 defenses in the NBA Finals. 3!!!!

Average defensive ranking Jordan faced in the Finals?
7.16, not 10 as was falsely posted.

Not to mention, Jordan dropped 63 points on the #1 defense in 1986 who also won the world championship that year aka the Boston Celtics.

All of the defenses Jordan faced and destroyed in the playoffs:
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1990 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1990 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 19th in the NBA in defense
1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1991 New York Knicks ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1991 Philadelphia 76ers ranked 14th in the NBA in defense
1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
1992 Miami Heat ranked 24th in the NBA in defense
1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
1992 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 11th in the NBA in defense
1993 Atlanta Hawks ranked 22cnd in the NBA in defense
1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
1995 Orlando Magic ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1996 Orlando Magic ranked 12th in the NBA in defense
1997 Washington Bullets ranked 13th in the NBA in defense
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
1998 New Jersey Nets ranked 21st in the NBA in defense
1998 Charlotte Hornets ranked 15th in the NBA in defense
1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense


Jordan faced 17 top 5 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced 24 top 10 defenses in the post-season.
Jordan faced on average the 8.35 ranked Defense in the NBA, in the post-season.

Let's see how Jordan faired against these defenses:
Playoffs
Most Playoffs Points Per Game NBA history (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Playoff Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Playoff Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Playoff Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Playoff Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Playoff Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS Apr 20, 1986
(1st ranked D)

1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 1, 1988
(5th ranked D)

1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI May 5, 1989
(2cnd ranked D)

1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 11, 1990
(19th ranked D)

1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI May 10, 1991
(14th ranked D)

1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA Apr 29, 1992
(24th ranked D)

1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI Jun 16, 1993
(9th ranked D)

1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA Apr 28, 1995
(9th ranked D)

1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK May 11, 1996
(3rd ranked D)

1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI Apr 27, 1997
(13th ranked D)

1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA Jun 14, 1998
(16th ranked D)

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES SERIES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2 (Cleveland ranked 5th in the NBA in defense that season)

Michael Jordan NBA record 8 50 point games in the playoffs
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992 (24th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993 (9th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997 (13th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993 (1st ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988 (5th ranked D)
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989 (2cnd ranked D)
Even more important, Jordan was the main target of these defenses the ENTIRE TIME.


69 Cleveland OT Cleveland 3/28/90
64 Orlando OT Chicago 1/16/93
63 Boston 2OT Boston (Playoffs) * 4/20/86 against #1 rated defense that year
Jordan has the highest point total against a #1 rated defense in league history
in the playoffs no less
61 Detroit OT Detroit 3/4/87
61 Atlanta Chicago 4/16/87
59 Detroit Detroit 3/3/88
58 New Jersey Chicago 2/6/87
57 Washington Chicago 12/23/92
56 Philadelphia Chicago 3/24/87
56 Miami Miami (Playoffs) 4/29/92
55 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/1/88
55 Phoenix Chicago (Playoffs) 6/16/93
55 New York New York 3/28/95
55 Washington Washington (Playoffs) 4/30/97
54 L.A. Lakers Los Angeles 11/20/92
54 Cleveland Chicago 11/3/89
54 New York Chicago (Playoffs) 5/31/93
53 Portland Chicago 1/8/87
53 Indiana Chicago 4/12/87
53 Phoenix Chicago 1/21/89
53 Detroit Chicago 3/7/96
52 Cleveland Chicago 12/17/87
52 Portland Chicago 2/26/88
52 Boston Boston 11/9/88
52 Philadelphia Philadelphia 11/16/88
52 Denver Denver 11/26/88
52 Orlando Orlando 12/20/89
52 Charlotte Chicago 3/12/93
51 New Orleans Washington 12/29/01
51 Washington Washington 3/19/92
51 New York Chicago 1/21/97
50 New York New York 11/1/86
50 Milwaukee Milwaukee 4/13/87
50 Boston Chicago 3/18/88
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 4/28/88
50 Milwaukee Chicago 2/16/89
50 Cleveland Chicago (Playoffs) 5/5/89
50 Denver Chicago 3/24/92
50 Miami Miami 11/6/96
Those are Jordan's 50 point games, notice how many of them came in the PLAYOFFS. Notice how many came against great defenses and great teams. Also Jordan was the main focus of each defense he faced. That's very important.

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 24 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 6 he won while making over 50% of his shots, Jordan led the league in steals, Jordan was the best shot blocking guard, Jordan won 14 combined MVP's (3 all star, 5 league, 6 finals). Jordan averaged 33, 6, and 6 in the Finals for his career. Jordan averaged 31.5ppg on 51.5% shooting when he wore a Bulls uniform while leading the league in scoring 10 times.

[Al Thornton]

The reason they did so well the next year was first of all because the Bulls always played great defense so even with MJ gone they could still win games without his 30 a night. And Pippen was a great leader his season back then is the equivalent of Lebron's right now. So no Jordan is not overrated.

[Bush4Ever]

1. The Bulls coasted for much of the 1993 regular season, while the 1994 Bulls played balls-to-the-wall for the entire regular season. This is fairly well documented.

2. The Bulls were approximately a .500 team in 1995 before Jordan came on board. Not great.

Jordan led the NBA in win shares virtually every year of his prime. There is a reason for that.

[highwhey]

I want to jizz on your mothers face.

[Jinxed]

1. The Bulls coasted for much of the 1993 regular season, while the 1994 Bulls played balls-to-the-wall for the entire regular season. This is fairly well documented.

2. The Bulls were approximately a .500 team in 1995 before Jordan came on board. Not great.

Jordan led the NBA in win shares virtually every year of his prime. There is a reason for that.

If your first point is true, then that's a good one. Source?

Win shares is calculated very similar to PER, and takes into account box score statistics to base its theories on. Not bad, but has many fallacies and I don't think it's a good representation of actual win shares..just well named.

Jordan was a BALL HOG, and therefore his statistics are inflated.

I would love to have a real adjusted plus/minus on Jordan's career. Unfortunetaly we don't have one.

[Jinxed]

You guys do realize that game where he scored 63 went into double overtime and the Bulls LOST right?

[DonDadda59]

If your first point is true, then that's a good one.

Win shares is calculated very similar to PER, and takes into account box score statistics to base its theories on. Not bad, but has many fallacies and I don't think it's a good representation of actual win shares..just well named.

Jordan was a BALL HOG, and therefore his statistics are inflated.

I would love to have a real adjusted plus/minus on Jordan's career. Unfortunetaly we don't have one.

How exactly was Jordan a ball hog? His teams were mainly built as defensive squads, you think they should've given more shots to Dennis Rodman? He had to carry a bigger offensive load because they weren't an offensively potent team, solid but not great. He shot over 50% as a Bull and handed out over 5 APG, as the secondary playmaker on the team (He was putting up unreal all around #s, near triple double averages as the main playmaker). And he won his championships and put up extraordinary statistical production in the toughest defensive era ever. Now you want to talk about 'inflated' #s, let's talk about the no contact rules on the perimeter and the 3 second rule...

[GOBB]

What the hell are win shares?

[west]

Sorry,wrong post.

[Jinxed]

How exactly was Jordan a ball hog? His teams were mainly built as defensive squads, you think they should've given more shots to Dennis Rodman? He had to carry a bigger offensive load because they weren't an offensively potent team, solid but not great. He shot over 50% as a Bull and handed out over 5 APG, as the secondary playmaker on the team (He was putting up Lebron-like all around #s before the triangle, as the main playmaker). And he won his championships and put up extraordinary statistical production in the toughest defensive era ever. Now you want to talk about 'inflated' #s, let's talk about the no contact rules on the perimeter and the 3 second rule...

The 1993-1994 Bulls had the 14th ranked offense in the leage, better than average and the next year they had the 10th best offense in the league. This is without Jordan..so they were still a Good offensive team, even without Mike.

The way I view Jordan, especially the early years before Pippen came around is similar to the year Kobe avg 35 points a game. You're right, he didn't have many other players on his team that could score, besides briefly playing with George Gervin and Orlando Woolridge...and because he carried most of the offense he had INFLATED statistics...stats he woudn't have if there were other scorers on the team. So...thanks for helping prove my point.