PBS:The Rise of ISIS

[KevinNYC]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/rise-of-isis/

[LJJ]

Ooh a new frontline. I like myself some frontline.

[Rodmantheman]

Absolute chaos

[MavsSuperFan]

Ooh a new frontline. I like myself some frontline.

Nice episode. Frontline is the best programming in america

[MavsSuperFan]

I am still glad Obama pulled us out of Iraq in 2011. sure it all went to shit and it wouldnt have if we stayed but, there was no solution to iraq. Eventually the US had to leave, at that time all of this shit in one form or another would have happened (eg. civil war between sunni and shia).

A sunni vs shia civil war was inevitable. 2 things doomed iraq.
1. our invasion
2. our insistence on establishing a democracy. (democracy in iraq is basically choosing shia domination)

only a strong dictator prevents civil war in Iraq.
We should have either never invaded or set up a pro american sunni dictator. Eg. a Mubarak type guy

[KevinNYC]

Only saw the beginning so far

The first part shows how sectarian Maliki was.

He arrested the Vice President who was Sunni. He fled the country and his bodyguards were arrested. They appeared in video confessions saying they had planned bombings and attacks against Shiites.

So either the VP of Iraq was the leader of a vicious sectarian group

OR

The PM of Iraq tortured false confessions in a sectarian purge.

The men were held in a prison where torture had occurred.

[KevinNYC]

I am still glad Obama pulled us out of Iraq in 2011. sure it all went to shit and it wouldnt have if we stayed but, there was no solution to iraq. Eventually the US had to leave, at that time all of this shit in one form or another would have happened (eg. civil war between sunni and shia).

A sunni vs shia civil war was inevitable. 2 things doomed iraq.
1. our invasion
2. our insistence on establishing a democracy. (democracy in iraq is basically choosing shia domination)

only a strong dictator prevents civil war in Iraq.
We should have either never invaded or set up a pro american sunni dictator. Eg. a Mubarak type guy

Democracy by itself is not enough. We needed to make sure it was a liberal democracy with things like an independent court system and protection of minority rights.

Your number 2 above, could be rephrased "every thing that happened after the invasion." We made, many, many mistakes. The secrecy surrounding decision making and policies and the refusal to honestly consider the post war challenge meant our government wasn't even all on the same page. One part of our government were recruiting the Iraqi army to serve as a security force and then another part of the administration just up and fired them. To this day it's not even clear if dissolving the Iraqi army and insisting on harsh de-Baathification were policies of George W. Bush or just policies of some in his administration. Given this refusal to honestly evaluate the challenge, our intentions were doomed to fail.

A lot of folks believe that how we handled the post war inflamed sectarian tension in Iraq.

[RedBlackAttack]

Only saw the beginning so far

The first part shows how sectarian Maliki was.

He arrested the Vice President who was Sunni. He fled the country and his bodyguards were arrested. They appeared in video confessions saying they had planned bombings and attacks against Shiites.

So either the VP of Iraq was the leader of a vicious sectarian group

OR

The PM of Iraq tortured false confessions in a sectarian purge.

The men were held in a prison where torture had occurred.

Maliki was an absolute disaster. His paranoia of a Sunni uprising was so all-consuming, he eventually created the thing he feared most. No doubt in my mind that ISIS would not have the power they do today if he allowed the government to be more inclusive.

He was an extremist's wet dream... someone they could point at and say, "See... this is the alternative unless you allow us to protect you."

Disaster.

[9erempiree]

You cannot give people freedom. The people have to fight for their own freedom. If they don't have the ability to, that means they didn't deserve in the first place.

After we ousted Saddam, things have been going downhill and in hindsight, Saddam was probably the best thing to happen in Iraq. He kept things in check. Although, he was a scum bag, there are better then than they are now.

[RedBlackAttack]

You cannot give people freedom. The people have to fight for their own freedom. If they don't have the ability to, that means they didn't deserve in the first place.

After we ousted Saddam, things have been going downhill and in hindsight, Saddam was probably the best thing to happen in Iraq. He kept things in check. Although, he was a scum bag, there are better then than they are now.

There's no question Saddam -- as terrible as he was -- has nothing on this current group in terms of brutality and misery. These guys seem almost inhuman with the level of psychopathic behavior they display daily. Above religion or nationalism or family or anything else, they seem to value murder.

I knew things were bad prior to watching the above documentary, but god damn does it paint a scary picture. We have several options, here, and none of them seem appealing.

Unfortunately, it seems that -- once again -- we're going to have to step in and stop these guys. No one else seems willing or able to do it. Watching them parade around with hi-tech American made weapons, defense missiles and Humvees is infuriating while committing mass genocide is infuriating.

[MavsSuperFan]

Maliki was an absolute disaster. His paranoia of a Sunni uprising was so all-consuming, he eventually created the thing he feared most. No doubt in my mind that ISIS would not have the power they do today if he allowed the government to be more inclusive.

He was an extremist's wet dream... someone they could point at and say, "See... this is the alternative unless you allow us to protect you."

Disaster.

I think Maliki is legitimately bigoted against sunnis.

[SCdac]

inb4 Israel is blamed