even after 10 years of #24. Kobe is still #8 to me.

[ArbitraryWater]

All I see is a trash ass Mavs fan who was lucky to face The Lakers at the end of their run. That Team was burnt out and Dirk had a career Playoff, any other year ya ni99as would've been swept. Real Talk.

Can you say this in adult human again?

[HOoopCityJones]

Can you say this in adult human again?

Can you say all you do is post on an internet Basketball forum?

[Lakers 24/7]

All I see is a trash ass Mavs fan who was lucky to face The Lakers at the end of their run. That Team was burnt out and Dirk had a career Playoff, any other year ya ni99as would've been swept. Real Talk.

Are you retarded? You must be dumber than a rock.

He actually posted an intelligent response.

BTW, if you are really mentally deficient I'm sorry. I didn't mean any harm. I respect your struggle.

[catch24]

All I see is a trash ass Mavs fan who was lucky to face The Lakers at the end of their run. That Team was burnt out and Dirk had a career Playoff, any other year ya ni99as would've been swept. Real Talk.

I wouldn't take his post as a diss. Shaq's Lakers were just better all-around (16-1 in the playoffs doe). Kobe did a great job helping Diesel

[ShaqTwizzle]

00 Laker's VS 11 Maverick's

Who wins?

[miles berg]

Early 00s Lakers of course. Jordan's Bulls are the only team that I could see giving that prime (as a duo) Shaq/Kobe team a real series in a Finals scenario. They were that good. Mavs fans literally came up with scenarios every spring on how to avoid those Lakers and maybe sneak into the finals.

[SpecialQue]

Cause Kobe riding shotgun was>>> Kobe on his own

I always love this diss because it ignores that Shaq didn't win anything other than a sidekick ring when he didn't have Kobe saving his ass.

[LikeABosh]

Agreed, you just can't respect what he's done on the court since he raped that white girl and changed his number to 24

[ShaqTwizzle]

I always love this diss because it ignores that Shaq didn't win anything other than a sidekick ring when he didn't have Kobe saving his ass.

I always love these retorts because it ignores the fact that 3peat Kobe (outside of his 01 run) was nothing special as a sidekick.

Early 90's Pippen and even late 00's Gasol performed at a comparable if not flatout higher level in a secondary role and had better playoff runs.

00 Kobe : 21.1 / 4.5 / 4.4 on 52%TS [COLOR="Red"](19.3 PER)[/COLOR]
92 Pipp : 19.5 / 8.8 / 6.7 on 54%TS [COLOR="Red"](20.6 PER)[/COLOR]
09 Gasol : 18.3 / 10.8 / 2.5 on 62%TS [COLOR="Red"](21.9 PER)[/COLOR]

02 Kobe : 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.6 on 51%TS [COLOR="Red"](20.5 PER)[/COLOR]
91 Pipp : 21.6 / 8.9 / 5.8 on 56%TS [COLOR="Red"](22.0 PER)[/COLOR]
10 Gasol : 20 / 11 / 3.5 on 60%TS [COLOR="Red"](24.0 PER)[/COLOR]

02 Kobe (pre-Finals) : 26.6 / 5.9 / 4.4 on 49%TS

I mean he was a solid All-Star no doubt, but plenty of guys like 95 Drexler, 12 Wade etc... are all on the same tier as 00 & 02 Kobe.

So please knock it off.
Kobe was Shaq's Pippen level sidekick no matter how hard it is for you to stomach.
[COLOR="Red"]Number's don't lie. Stan's do.[/COLOR]

This ignorant ploy where people try to diminish Shaq's 3peat rings based on the completely false assertion that Kobe was better then the average sidekick or #2 needs to stop.
Kobe started out Pippen and became Jordan.

Shaq should not be hated on because his Pokemon eventually evolved while Jordan's didn't.

[catch24]

^Agree with most of this, but don't forget about Kobe's defense those years, especially in 2000 (1st team all-defense & 5th in DPOY voting) and 2002 (1st team all defense and 3rd in DPOY voting )

I would take Kobe over all those guys. Without hesitation. Dude hit big shots for us, played elite defense, was the Lakers primary facilitator, and in 2001, was already the games best perimeter scorer. Phil was quoted around that time, saying Kobe did more for a team than anybody he has ever coached and asked to do.

Honestly? Kobe was the GOAT sidekick in 2000 and 2002 (in 2001, he was closer to a 1B although Shaq was still clearly the better player).

[ShaqTwizzle]

Honestly? Kobe was the GOAT sidekick in 2000 and 2002

I don't agree with that.

I mean what makes 00 & 02 Kobe better then 91 & 92 Pippen?

00 Kobe : 21.1 / 4.5 / 4.4 on 52%TS (19.3 PER)
92 Pipp : 19.5 / 8.8 / 6.7 on 54%TS (20.6 PER)

02 Kobe : 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.6 on 51%TS (20.5 PER)
91 Pipp : 21.6 / 8.9 / 5.8 on 56%TS (22.0 PER)

Pippen produced a comparable level of offense on much better efficiency and grabbed more boards.

Even defensively the gap is pretty clearly in Pip's favor though I thought Kobe was an "elite" defender in 00 and a "very good" defender in 02.

Don't get me wrong there aren't many #2's who I think performed at a considerably higher level then 02 Kobe or 00 Kobe (pre-Finals) but I do think there is a pretty long list of #2's on the same "tier" or level with quite a few that can be argued as better (and are pretty clearly better statistically).

I judge guys based on their factual production, efficiency and performance level.
I don't like cherry picking individual games, series and I certainly don't like bringing up other years or career achievements.

Kobe was a fine #2 in 00 & 02 but his performance level wasn't all that amazing.

I mean [COLOR="DarkRed"]26 / 4.4-apg on 49%TS[/COLOR] is what he averaged against the West in the 02 playoffs.

You telling me there isn't a pretty long list of wings over the last decade or two who could put up those rather mediocre numbers playing off of Shaq?

[catch24]

^PER is an efficiency stat, and while I agree Pippen was more efficient than Kobe, Pippen couldn't dream of scoring the way Kobe could and did those years. That mano y mano takeover in Game 4 of the 2000 finals? Pippen couldn't do that.

Pippen couldn't bully the Kings and Spurs the way Kobe did in 2002.

PER is a neat little stat, but its not a basis to argue who THE better player is. According to "PER", Kobe is greater than both Magic and Bird (something I vehemently disagree with).

[catch24]

I do agree there were certain players, even from that era, that could replace Kobe and win a title or two with Shaq. No doubt.

But that's all hypothetical and we can only debate what is, aka reality, and that's Kobe being arguably the greatest sidekick of them all.

Just my 2 cents

[ShaqTwizzle]

^PER is an efficiency stat, and while I agree Pippen was more efficient than Kobe, Pippen couldn't dream of scoring the way Kobe could and did those years.

Why does it matter how they scored?
Pippen may have used a different style but if it was more effective then wasn't it better?
I mean the results are what matter.

That mano y mano takeover in Game 4 of the 2000 finals? Pippen couldn't do that.

Funny thing about that game.
Had Kobe not played so poorly during regulation there never would have been an OT.
He scored 20pts on 43%TS prior to the OT in that "famous" game.
Most people kind of ignore that or simply don't realize it.
Maybe I was the first to ever notice that.

I also think you are maybe underrating Pippen's halfcourt offensive skills.
He could break guys down off the dribble.

Pippen couldn't bully the Kings and Spurs the way Kobe did in 2002.

Kobe wasn't all that great in those series.

26 / 4.8-apg on 49%TS --VS Spurs
27 / 3.9-apg on 49%TS --VS Kings

Maybe Pippen wouldn't score quite as much in his shoes but he might have more assists, score more efficiently and play better defense.

PER is a good stat, but its not a basis to argue who the better player is. According to PER, Kobe is a better player than both Magic and Bird (something I vehemently disagree with).

Fair enough.

[JohnnySic]

24 was more likeable. Not only was he a better team player, but after the rape thing he became more candid and real. 8 was a cartoon character.