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Old 09-26-2015, 12:41 PM   #1
catch24
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Default Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

I've seen great stuff from the Wilt Chamberlain Archive, PHILA, etc., and I can appreciate the time that goes into editing and uploading footage...

But I've also seen really unimpressive basketball to the point that its...cringe worthy.

Wilt's post game, from the footage that has recently been found, has looked pretty underwhelming tbh. Guy looks stiff, immobile, and reckless in the way he goes about scoring. The defense from that era is what really gets to me, though. I have respect for all basketball, in any era, but the full games that were posted here... are hard to watch. The defense almost looks non-existent.

Do you guys think the more footage that gets unearthed actually exposes these players, and gives them notoriety instead?

Last edited by catch24 : 09-26-2015 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 09-26-2015, 12:58 PM   #2
kennethgriffin
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

the only good piece of old footage i ever saw was bill russell taking it full court for a fancy layup with little or no resistance from the defense
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Old 09-26-2015, 12:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catch24
I've seen great stuff from the Wilt Chamberlain Archive, PHILA, etc., and I can appreciate the time that goes into editing and uploading footage...

But I've also seen really unimpressive basketball to the point that its...cringe worthy.

Wilt's post game, from the footage that has recently been found, has looked pretty underwhelming tbh. Guy looks stiff, immobile, and reckless in the way he goes about scoring. The defense from that era is what really gets to me, though. I have respect for all basketball, in any era, but the full games that were posted here... are hard to watch. The defense almost looks non-existent.

Do you guys think the more footage that gets unearthed actually exposes these players, and gives them notoriety instead?

video exposes the 50s and 60s for what they were, high pace rec league basketball.

imo video really exposes the 70s and 80s lax defenses. People keep saying the game was physical, but the players barely defended each other outside of 5ft from the hoop. That's was not a physical game, it's just a game of cheap shots. And i'm talking about finals games too.

Imo video really shows the progression of the league:
It made me respect jerry west A LOT. A true pioneer of the modern game.
On the other hand it made me see wilt as an athlete not as a basketball player.
It made me see that the 80s had little real defenses outside of camping the lane.
It made me understand that the difficulties with scoring in the 90s were not because of lack of talent but because of real defensive schemes that led to late shot clock isos.
It made me understand that the modern space and pace game is ultra efficient, even if it lacks post action and is thus IMO less pretty.
It makes me understand that players change their skill emphasis according to the most efficient type of ball of that era.
It made me understand that some players which were successfull in a rec style game would not have the skills to adapt to a space and pace game.
Video shows the difference between the short 3p line and the normal 3p line, so when trolls like 3ball come with 3pter% you can easily call them out for skewing comparisons.

Video, as any non-cherry picked evidence, is great!

Bonus, it also enables me to troll the living shit out of the 60s in other threads.
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

lol some idiot 1 starred an objective thread.
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

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Originally Posted by swagga
lol some idiot 1 starred an objective thread.

Probably Laz or CavsFTW.

They'll start posting Essays in a bit.
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catch24
I've seen great stuff from the Wilt Chamberlain Archive, PHILA, etc., and I can appreciate the time that goes into editing and uploading footage...

But I've also seen really unimpressive basketball to the point that its...cringe worthy.

Wilt's post game, from the footage that has recently been found, has looked pretty underwhelming tbh. Guy looks stiff, immobile, and reckless in the way he goes about scoring. The defense from that era is what really gets to me, though. I have respect for all basketball, in any era, but the full games that were posted here... are hard to watch. The defense almost looks non-existent.

Do you guys think the more footage that gets unearthed actually exposes these players, and gives them notoriety instead?
It only "exposes" them to individuals that can't appreciate the beginnings of basketball.

Most of us posters that appreciate basketball heritage understand its limitations. We recognize that those players are not as skilled or athletic as the players of today.

...But we also recognize that we have the product that we do today, because of those from the past.

Is Cousy the best ball-handler and passer ever? Most likely not. But he's certainly the first one to be known for it, to make it famous.

Is Doc the best dunker ever? Most likely not, but again, he's the one that made it famous and main-stream and popular.

Is Curry the best 3p shooter ever? Right now, yes. In 20 years? Most likely not. But we, of this generation, will still look fondly at Curry and what he accomplished.

This is no different. Their hard work, and abilities, were second-to-none in their time, in their era. And because of them, we can learn from their mistakes, we can improve upon their tools, their techniques. That does not diminish them, nor what they have accomplished.
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kshutts1
It only "exposes" them to individuals that can't appreciate the beginnings of basketball.

Most of us posters that appreciate basketball heritage understand its limitations. We recognize that those players are not as skilled or athletic as the players of today.

...But we also recognize that we have the product that we do today, because of those from the past.

Is Cousy the best ball-handler and passer ever? Most likely not. But he's certainly the first one to be known for it, to make it famous.

Is Doc the best dunker ever? Most likely not, but again, he's the one that made it famous and main-stream and popular.

Is Curry the best 3p shooter ever? Right now, yes. In 20 years? Most likely not. But we, of this generation, will still look fondly at Curry and what he accomplished.

This is no different. Their hard work, and abilities, were second-to-none in their time, in their era. And because of them, we can learn from their mistakes, we can improve upon their tools, their techniques. That does not diminish them, nor what they have accomplished.

most people on this board understand this, the trolling has another reason.
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Old 09-26-2015, 01:59 PM   #8
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kshutts1
It only "exposes" them to individuals that can't appreciate the beginnings of basketball.

Most of us posters that appreciate basketball heritage understand its limitations. We recognize that those players are not as skilled or athletic as the players of today.

...But we also recognize that we have the product that we do today, because of those from the past.

Is Cousy the best ball-handler and passer ever? Most likely not. But he's certainly the first one to be known for it, to make it famous.

Is Doc the best dunker ever? Most likely not, but again, he's the one that made it famous and main-stream and popular.

Is Curry the best 3p shooter ever? Right now, yes. In 20 years? Most likely not. But we, of this generation, will still look fondly at Curry and what he accomplished.

This is no different. Their hard work, and abilities, were second-to-none in their time, in their era. And because of them, we can learn from their mistakes, we can improve upon their tools, their techniques. That does not diminish them, nor what they have accomplished.

All of this goes without saying though.

My OP was more or less directed at the audience who think past players would all be the SAME today...or better.

Like, there was nothing in those Wilt videos I watched to suggest he would hold a candle to Peak Shaq or Hakeem. Elgin Baylor or Oscar Robertson, and their being "just as good" as Jordan, Kobe, LeBron and Durant (even without the palm violation; look at their shooting releases and difference in footwork).

I'm just not seeing it.

I do agree that Jerry West looks pretty good on film. Of all the players I watched, him and his pull up jumper would have probably translated well.
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

It definitely hurts the Wilt mythologists' cause. You hear/read all these extraordinary, superhuman feats he was supposedly capable of, then you see actual game footage of him...
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

I like Elgin Baylor videos. I think Elgin best show player in 1960's basketball .

I love Bob Pettit's plays cause I'm a Dirk fan and they are have same styles.
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

Pretty good question op. It does, and it doesn't. Depending on what you want to prove with it. You have to understand dribbling rules being more rigid and skill wise being less adept at it makes a huge aesthetic difference off top. Defenses were worse, cheap shots were thrown and role players now are more skilled than role players then. To be more specific bench players. But you also see the guys in the lab who made the moves we see everyone and their mom do in the modern league. That was the most eye opening thing for me, to see crossovers, eurosteps, fadeaways, etc. Those guys were imaginative and molded the product we have now. Can't ever forget where you came from.
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catch24
All of this goes without saying though.

My OP was more or less directed at the audience who think past players would all be the SAME today...or better.

Like, there was nothing in those Wilt videos I watched to suggest he would hold a candle to Peak Shaq or Hakeem. Elgin Baylor or Oscar Robertson, and their being "just as good" as Jordan, Kobe, LeBron and Durant (even without the palm violation; look at their shooting releases and difference in footwork).

I'm just not seeing it.

I do agree that Jerry West looks pretty good on film. Of all the players I watched, him and his pull up jumper would have probably translated well.

Yeah, but the inverse is also valid.Take today's players, give them the same situation of no year round training, nutritional focus, no 3 point line, no AAU competition, different rules etc... Would they still be performing at the same level at the same age ? Can't answer that hypothetical. That's the problem with trying to compare players of different eras. All you can do is judge player's dominance against the competition of the era.
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Old 09-26-2015, 02:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

Harm of course. Articles and testimonials of that era are insanely exaggerated when comparing to the film.

It's like how myths of ancient times started: stories get passed down generation to generation, and every time it's told someone adds a little extra sprinkle of something else and boom; you have the story of Heracles, Achilles, Beowulf, Odysseus, Cuchulain etc. It wasn't that different for the 60's era of NBA. Wilt once dunked so hard the ball came down and broke someone's foot? He dunk a bowling ball or am I missing something?

That being said based on film I am convinced Wilt and Bill Russell will be top 5 stars today, I just don't think they'd be 20 rpg, 8-10 bpg monsters like their stats, articles or player testimonials will suggest. Physical ability-wise, Wilt is GOAT-debatable to me. I really can't name any other player who can get high enough to block(or goaltend, not trying to get into a discussion about semantics) KAJ's skyhook. Dude's got to be up there.

Have a hard time imagining any non C's making it today without growing up with the game in the modern era though.
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Old 09-26-2015, 03:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kshutts1
It only "exposes" them to individuals that can't appreciate the beginnings of basketball.

Most of us posters that appreciate basketball heritage understand its limitations. We recognize that those players are not as skilled or athletic as the players of today.

...But we also recognize that we have the product that we do today, because of those from the past.

Is Cousy the best ball-handler and passer ever? Most likely not. But he's certainly the first one to be known for it, to make it famous.

Is Doc the best dunker ever? Most likely not, but again, he's the one that made it famous and main-stream and popular.

Is Curry the best 3p shooter ever? Right now, yes. In 20 years? Most likely not. But we, of this generation, will still look fondly at Curry and what he accomplished.

This is no different. Their hard work, and abilities, were second-to-none in their time, in their era. And because of them, we can learn from their mistakes, we can improve upon their tools, their techniques. That does not diminish them, nor what they have accomplished.
I think a lot of people respect the pioneer aspect of Cousy, Big O etc. It's when, for example, threads such as 'How much would Wilt average today' get made and the vast majority of objective fans give him still insane (just not 60's level of gaudy) stat predictions of like 24/16/4/4 and his stans get mad at a suggestion of any statline below like 35/18. I mean, has anyone even done 30/15 since the mid 80's? I can't just believe Wilt would be the best today... I have to believe he's the best by that much? That's where most of the 60's trolling comes from imo.
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Old 09-26-2015, 03:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: Does unearthing Old Footage do more Harm than Good for older eras?

It depends on 1) what is unearthed and 2) what the target group is. Overall, I think it does more good than harm, although, the bigger the delay, the more the possibilities that the basketball of that era will look alienated from the "present situation".

1) Most of the players from that era used to have so limited footage available that it couldn't cover even their most basic basketball and athletic skills and it gave fans very limited (and therefore, wrong) perceptions. In the 90's, all we were seeing was Russell giving some random blocks, old, heavy Wilt as a Laker, a few random jump shots by Oscar or West, etc. You couldn't find any footage of Nate Thurmond or Walt Bellamy to save your life. Hell, I know that there were early NBA Live games that were giving, e.g, Bellamy zero dunking ability - he literally never dunked, because that's how limited of a perception the creators of the best NBA game of the era themselves had about certain players.
When footage of Russell running fast breaks and jumping from close to the FT line, Wilt blocking shots close to the top of the backboard and shooting perfect fade-aways, West running like crazy, then suddenly stopping dead on his trucks to shoot a lightening quick jump shot or pestering people defensively with his long arms, Oscar's body while rebounding taking a pose of a martial artist's, Cousy making Jason Williams-like passes, a lot of people's eyes opened. When some of Wilt's 50+ point games or some of his great playoff performances or some of Oscar's humongous triple-doubles, etc, are unearthed, more people's eyes will open.

2) Are these videos targeted to actual fans or to people with an agenda? Like I said, lots of people admitted that new footage gave them a new respect for older players. On the other hand, you have typical trolls and cowards who, after getting their crap destroyed left and right, continuously move the goal posts to make it seem like their crap was legit talk. Some of them may still wait for Wilt to jump 50 inches or to shutter some backboards to "prove his strength". Is this the kind of people we should care to inform? Hell, no.
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