Clear-cut proof that the supporting cast of Lebron's early Cavs > MJ's early Bulls

[3ball]

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Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.. The only way Lebron's equal production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

Not only did Jordan have the weaker cast, but he did DID MORE with that weaker cast in 1989: the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so that was a lottery roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to a 3-peat beginning in 1991, which represents the goat impact on a lottery team.

[COLOR="White"]FYI: We know that Lebron's 2009 win total didn't benefit from better defense or brand of basketball, since Jordan's defense and brand of basketball was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.[/COLOR]

[Screamin A Smit]

LeBron without Wade vs. Jordan without Pippen


Average Team wins

Jordan - 36.4 wins LeBron 51.2 wins



Playoff series wins

Jordan - 0 LeBron - 15


Finals Appearances

Jordan - 0 LeBron - 3


Championships

Jordan - 0 LeBron - 1



MVPs


Jordan - 0 LeBron - 2



FMVPs


Jordan - 0 LeBron- 1





50 win teams beaten



Jordan - 0 LeBron - 5





Pippen the season after Jordan left - 55 wins 2nd round in the playoffs




Wade the season after LeBron left- 37 wins misses the playoffs

[SouBeachTalents]

It's scary to think how many times you've made this thread

https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=j...nsidehoops.com

[Screamin A Smit]

It's scary to think how many times you've made this thread

https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=j...nsidehoops.com

672 results

[3ball]

LeBron without Wade vs. Jordan without Pippen


Average Team wins

Jordan - 36.4 wins LeBron 51.2 wins



Playoff series wins

Jordan - 0 LeBron - 15


Finals Appearances

Jordan - 0 LeBron - 3


Championships

Jordan - 0 LeBron - 1



MVPs


Jordan - 0 LeBron - 2



FMVPs


Jordan - 0 LeBron- 1





50 win teams beaten



Jordan - 0 LeBron - 5





Pippen the season after Jordan left - 55 wins 2nd round in the playoffs




Wade the season after LeBron left- 37 wins misses the playoffs

Before Wade, Lebron's 2nd-best player was always a top 3 player at their position in the conference (all-star), whether it was Zydrunas Ilgauskas (17/9 and 2.2 blk) or Mo Williams.

Otoh, Jordan's 2nd best player was never anywhere near a top 3 player at their position before 1990, so his supporting players were weaker RELATIVE TO THEIR COMPETITION than Lebron's, which explains the weaker record - MJ's supporting cast was simply weaker, which was why his first 3 rings required 30% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings with equal assists.

In addition to a weaker supporting cast, Jordan also faced superior competition, since his rings required him to defeat TWICE the number of 50-win teams as Lebron in less games (179 playoff games to Lebron's 199).

Lebron's weaker comp is pretty obvious - he made the 2007 Finals by averaging only 25 ppg on 41% in ECSF, and 26 ppg on 45% in ECF - those would be among the worst series of Jordan's career and wouldn't get him out of the first round, let alone make the Finals.

[NBAGOAT]

true on the box score production but that's why box scores aren't necessarily anything, You always use 89 but why not compare 90 Bulls to 09 Cavs. Pippen was borderline all star level by that time and most people would agree the Bulls had better supporting players. Still Bulls only had 55 wins with Jordan putting up 34/7/6 amd I don't think era difference can account for 10+wins.

[3ball]

Pippen was borderline all-star by that time

In 1989, the 2nd-year Pippen averaged 14/6 and was nowhere NEAR all-star caliber, yet Jordan still made ECF and took the champion Bad Boys 6 games.

Otoh, Lebron's 2nd best player (Zydrunas or Mo Williams) were all-stars (top 3 player at their position in the conference) and therefore better relative to their competition than Pippen was.. This proves that Lebron's early Cavs teams had better casts than Jordan's Bulls thru 1989.

Still Bulls only had 55 wins with Jordan putting up 34/7/6

Jordan won 3 rings with Pippen as the only current or former all-star teammate, while Lebron always needed 2 all-star teammates - this is a blatant example of Jordan's weaker cast, which is why his first 3 rings required 30% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings with equal assists.. It all makes sense and the stats prove everything.

In 1990, Pippen was borderline all star level

You're probably young and don't know this, but it's common knowledge that the Bulls would've won Game 7 of 1990 ECF if Pippen didn't have a legendary choke with 2 points on 1-10 (famously called the "migraine" game).

Keep in mind that the Pistons only needed 5 easy games to beat the Blazers in the Finals, but 7 tough games and Pippen's choke to beat the Bulls.. So Pippen's epic choke cost the Bulls their first championship.. Btw, Pippen admitted his epic choke was due to "the pressure"
.

[GimmeThat]

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Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.. The only way Lebron's equal production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

Not only did Jordan have the weaker cast, but he did DID MORE with that weaker cast in 1989: the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so that was a lottery roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to a 3-peat beginning in 1991, which represents the goat impact on a lottery team.

[COLOR="White"]FYI: We know that Lebron's 2009 win total didn't benefit from better defense or brand of basketball, since Jordan's defense and brand of basketball was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.[/COLOR]

I feel like you would have the expert knowledge on who's the worst starting SG on an NBA championship team

[Smoke117]

It's scary to think how many times you've made this thread

https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=j...nsidehoops.com

[NBAGOAT]

It's scary to think how many times you've made this thread

https://www.google.com/#safe=off&q=j...nsidehoops.com

this one has to be the worst. Copy and pasted from just a month ago http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=416881. I guess I can give him credit for adding on to it this with some other copy paste arguments.

Btw 3ball, I was obviously talking about 1990 when calling pippen a borderline all star. By your logic, he made the all star game so he must've been top 3 at his position relative to conference. Ofc Ik he choked but first we were talking about regular season production and second it's not like Lebron's teammates were good vs the Magic.

[3ball]

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Jordan's first 3 rings required 25-33% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings, while still getting equal or greater assists - so the only category where Lebron leads is defensive rebounds:

PLAYOFFS PER GAME THRU 31 YEARS OLD

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 34.7 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 6.6 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.0 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 28.0 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.8 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER[/COLOR]

PLAYOFFS PER 100 POSSESSIONS THRU 31 YEARS OLD

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan:[COLOR="White"]I[/COLOR] 43.9 pts..[COLOR="White"]N[/COLOR] 8.5 reb.. 8.4 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 2.9 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 50.1 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 119 ortg.. 29.6 PER[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.4 pts.. 11.5 reb.. 8.8 ast.. 4.6 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 47.8 fg.. 56.7 ts.. 115 ortg.. 27.7 PER[/COLOR]

FINALS PER GAME THRU 31 YEARS OLD:

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan Finals:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.7 tov.. 2.0 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 52.6 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron Finals:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 27.0 ppg.. 9.9 rpg.. 7.2 apg.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg.. 45.4 fg[/COLOR]

How could any talk of Lebron having a weaker supporting cast exist when Jordan was required to score 30% more for his rings with equal assists?...

[3ball]

Btw 3ball, I was obviously talking about 1990 when calling pippen a borderline all star. By your logic, he made the all star game so he must've been top 3 at his position relative to conference. Ofc Ik he choked but first we were talking about regular season production and second it's not like Lebron's teammates were good vs the Magic.

It's pretty simple - Jordan only had 1 current or former all-star for his first 3 rings (whereas Lebron had 2), which explains why Jordan's first 3 rings required 30% more scoring than Lebron's 3 rings with equal assists (as shown in the previous post).


How can you think that Jordan's supporting cast compares to Lebron's, when Jordan's first 3 rings required 30% more scoring and equal assists?...

[Hey Yo]

1991 Scottie 2nd team NBA All-Defense

'92 and '93 he was 1st team NBA All-Defense and 2nd Team All-NBA '92 and 3rd All-NBA team in '93

He guarded the Stars and Superstars while MJ focused on scoring.

[bigkingsfan]

BJ Armstrong was voted a starter in the 1994 NBA All-Star Game, damn Jordan holding him back all those years.

[aj1987]

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Lebron's 2009 production was equal to Jordan's 1989 production, but Lebron's team won 19 more games.. The only way Lebron's equal production can yield 19 more wins is due to a better supporting cast, and probably inferior competition as well.

Not only did Jordan have the weaker cast, but he did DID MORE with that weaker cast in 1989: the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8 - so that was a lottery roster without Jordan in 1989, that Jordan led to a 3-peat beginning in 1991, which represents the goat impact on a lottery team.

[COLOR="Magenta"]FYI: We know that Lebron's 2009 win total didn't benefit from better defense or brand of basketball, since Jordan's defense and brand of basketball was more successful in the higher-competition playoffs:

Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champion Bad Boys to 6 games in ECF, whereas Lebron's favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball and defense exposed by Dwight Howard's underdog Magic.[/COLOR]

Ordan sucks. LeBron >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ordan. Deal with it.