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Old 04-22-2015, 03:39 AM   #31
Pointguard
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrofir
The Rose year was a change up year. Rose's MVP is weaker than either of Nash's in my book, primarily because the team could win without him. But I still don't have a problem with it.

Nope not that year. Not with the injuries, not without them knowing how to break a trap. Having few offensive sets. No consistent scorer. He missed one game that year.
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Old 04-22-2015, 05:01 AM   #32
Mrofir
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

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Originally Posted by Pointguard
Nope not that year. Not with the injuries, not without them knowing how to break a trap. Having few offensive sets. No consistent scorer. He missed one game that year.


You are correct here.


"What Rose did was much harder than what Nash and Curry did." Curry maybe, Nash absolutely not.

Nash making it look easy is not the same as it being easy. The team won less than 30 games the year before and Nash was obviously the difference and remained the difference for multiple seasons after.
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:45 PM   #33
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

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Originally Posted by Mrofir
You are correct here.


"What Rose did was much harder than what Nash and Curry did." Curry maybe, Nash absolutely not.

Nash making it look easy is not the same as it being easy. The team won less than 30 games the year before and Nash was obviously the difference and remained the difference for multiple seasons after.
Nash was absolutely great. And Curry has few weaknesses.

But ask any guard what makes their job easiest, practical and winnable from that position.

1.Great shooters,
2. Great finishers,
3.Very good scorers,
4. Great athletes,
5. Consistency
6. Great System
7. Great offensive coach
8. Seasoned Players
9 Offensive versatility
10.Open floor
11.Solid options
12.Easy baskets

There is absolutely "no or maybe" with Curry or Nash having those dimensions assisted to them by their organizations. These dimensions make it better for every offensive player but especially for a PG who uses this for his whole repertoire. Not only were their games much easier, but it was 12 fold much more loaded for success and point guard stats... .
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Old 04-22-2015, 01:01 PM   #34
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Nash orchestrated an elite offense
Curry orchestrated an elite offense
Rose orchestrated a shit offense.

One of these things is not like the other!
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Old 04-22-2015, 01:53 PM   #35
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Both Nash and Rose deserved it. They actually dominated in an era when players were healthy and in their prime.

Curry doesn't, here's why.

Kobe - old and injured
Durant - injured
Lebron - old
Carmelo - plays on a shitty team

So Curry wins MVP by default. If any of those 4 guys were healthy and on the Warriors, then Curry would just go back to being a solid role player, kind of like when Monte Ellis was still with Golden State.

You know it's a weak era when a Ray Allenesque, Reggie Millerish type of player can win the MVP.

Last edited by Taller than CP3 : 04-22-2015 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:16 PM   #36
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

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Originally Posted by Taller than CP3
Both Nash and Rose deserved it. They actually dominated in an era when players were healthy and in their prime.

Curry doesn't, here's why.

Kobe - old and injured
Durant - injured
Lebron - old
Carmelo - plays on a shitty team

So Curry wins MVP by default. If any of those 4 guys were healthy and on the Warriors, then Curry would just go back to being a solid role player, kind of like when Monte Ellis was still with Golden State.

You know it's a weak era when a Ray Allenesque, Reggie Millerish type of player can win the MVP.

That may be true for Nash in 2006, but it sure wasn't true for Rose in 2011. Rose won it because most of the top tier guys had down years. Lebron had a down year in 2011, and he also had the whole decision issue and Wade was on his team putting up similar production. Kobe was playing on a bad leg the entire year and coasted. Dwight had a great year, but his team was mediocre, and Dirk just didn't have the numbers.
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:18 PM   #37
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph_i_el
Nash orchestrated an elite offense
Curry orchestrated an elite offense
Rose orchestrated a shit offense.

One of these things is not like the other!
Wow, didn't I just delineate why you can't have an elite offense while being weak in 12 primary areas. I mean you could have understood one thing, but that was asking too much.

But his team had the best record in the league?
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:21 PM   #38
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Kobe's 08 MVP is a bit like Harden this year.


....if Harden also had the best record in the west.
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:25 PM   #39
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by game3524
That may be true for Nash in 2006, but it sure wasn't true for Rose in 2011. Rose won it because most of the top tier guys had down years. Lebron had a down year in 2011, and he also had the whole decision issue and Wade was on his team putting up similar production. Kobe was playing on a bad leg the entire year and coasted. Dwight had a great year, but his team was mediocre, and Dirk just didn't have the numbers.
Those are just excuses. And you can make them for every year.

Lebron was on a super talented team and didn't have the best record. Dirk was on one of his best teams. Rose had waaaaay more excuses and reasons not to excell that year than Wade, Lebron, Dwight... .
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Old 04-22-2015, 03:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard

There is absolutely "no or maybe" with Curry or Nash having those dimensions assisted to them by their organizations.


You make a lot of good points but I can't agree with this. Some years Nash had a very nice supporting cast, but here is his roster for his 2nd mvp season by order of minutes played:

Marion
Raja Bell
Boris Diaw
Nash
Barbosa
Tim Thomas
Kurt Thomas
James Jones
Eddie House

This team of bench players lost in the WCF. Other than Nash, Marion is the only sure fire starter quality talent on that roster and they had no depth. Curry obviously has much more around him; I truly cannot see another point guard in nba history taking this particular roster that close to a championship. Imagine if Westbrook had taken OKC to the brink of a finals appearance this year. He still had more talent around him than Nash had in 06. And Nash did it again in 2010 with 2.5 starter quality players and again, no depth.

Stoudemire
Nash
J Rich
Grant Hill
Channing Frye
Jared Dudley
Robin Lopez
G Dragic


Sure the Bulls built a more defensive oriented team around Derrick Rose and the Suns tried to surround Nash with some decent shooters. But Nash made the dream in Phoenix, he wasn't assisted nearly enough by the front office. If he was assisted a little more, they would have won a championship. i.e. match Joe Johnson when he was an RFA.
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Old 04-22-2015, 03:34 PM   #41
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrofir
You make a lot of good points but I can't agree with this. Some years Nash had a very nice supporting cast, but here is his roster for his 2nd mvp season by order of minutes played:

Marion
Raja Bell
Boris Diaw
Nash
Barbosa
Tim Thomas
Kurt Thomas
James Jones
Eddie House

This team of bench players lost in the WCF. Other than Nash, Marion is the only sure fire starter quality talent on that roster and they had no depth. Curry obviously has much more around him; I truly cannot see another point guard in nba history taking this particular roster that close to a championship. Imagine if Westbrook had taken OKC to the brink of a finals appearance this year. He still had more talent around him than Nash had in 06. And Nash did it again in 2010 with 2.5 starter quality players and again, no depth.

Stoudemire
Nash
J Rich
Grant Hill
Channing Frye
Jared Dudley
Robin Lopez
G Dragic


Sure the Bulls built a more defensive oriented team around Derrick Rose and the Suns tried to surround Nash with some decent shooters. But Nash made the dream in Phoenix, he wasn't assisted nearly enough by the front office. If he was assisted a little more, they would have won a championship. i.e. match Joe Johnson when he was an RFA.
Good points as aalways. I certainly don't have a problem with Nash at all. He was the man. I think he deserved it. But offensively, his team was far superior to Roses.

What Kidd did in his prime was a bit more impressive than Nash tho, because he didn't have a system, an offensive minded coach, a finisher, continuity, nor as good shooters, or as versatile offensive players. Not one other player in the league could have done what Kidd did that year. Not Shaq, Kobe, Tmac, Duncan or any point guard. And Nash was pretty close to him with that second MVP. Agreed.

Point guards usually excel with offensive weapons/options. What Nash, Kidd and Rose did with very little is really hard to make something big out of little.
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Old 04-22-2015, 04:09 PM   #42
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointguard
Wow, didn't I just delineate why you can't have an elite offense while being weak in 12 primary areas. I mean you could have understood one thing, but that was asking too much.

But his team had the best record in the league?
Best record in the league based on defense....his weakest aspect.

It's not like Curry is surrounded by epic offensive talent. Klay is a great spot up shooter, draygod is ok, Barnes has been down, Lee barely plays, and Bogut hasn't been able to shoot since his elbow exploded.

Rose had Loul Deng and Boozer, who both had the ability to score 20+ ppg for the season, and Noah who was the best passing big in the game.

Rose ballhogged his way to great stats on a team that won because 1. They had the best D and 2. They played their starters more than anyone else.

Obviously curry and Nash had better offensive help than Rose....but they also made those guys better, and had offensive results multiple tiers above that Bulls team.

Rose was only in the MVP discussions because of the Bulls record, and that record was based on Thibs, D, and overworking the team in the regular season. NOT Rose's offense.

Last edited by ralph_i_el : 04-22-2015 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 04-22-2015, 04:17 PM   #43
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taller than CP3
Both Nash and Rose deserved it. They actually dominated in an era when players were healthy and in their prime.

Curry doesn't, here's why.

Kobe - old and injured
Durant - injured
Lebron - old
Carmelo - plays on a shitty team

So Curry wins MVP by default. If any of those 4 guys were healthy and on the Warriors, then Curry would just go back to being a solid role player, kind of like when Monte Ellis was still with Golden State.

You know it's a weak era when a Ray Allenesque, Reggie Millerish type of player can win the MVP.

Could be the worst post in ISH history.
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Old 04-22-2015, 04:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

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Originally Posted by T_L_P
Could be the worst post in ISH history.

It's up there.
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Old 04-22-2015, 04:24 PM   #45
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Default Re: Isnt the discrimination against MVP point guards apparent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph_i_el
Nash orchestrated an elite offense
Curry orchestrated an elite offense
Rose orchestrated a shit offense.

One of these things is not like the other!
Alvin Gentry vs Tom Thibs...
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