Derrick Rose shooting in the ECF vs. Miami

[DMAVS41]

What makes it frustrating to me is that often...I know im dealing with adults. but they act like I did when I was a kid. I remember clearly me and my uncle(big basketball guy...his best friend a guy named clyde mayes...made the NBA briefly..was a scout later and one of the people I learned a lot from). Watching some game in probably...86 or 87. I dont remember who was playing but a guy kept missing shots. It was someone on the Bulls because I was pissed off he kept shooting.

It was explained to me...that he was supposed to shoot. Even when it misses...

I was taught to look at the game not the ball. To see plays being run. Get to know what is being run and when.

At that point...it stopped being a question of why ___ was shooting. Hes supposed to.

And here I am a quarter century later I still see people watch Korver run a lap and clear out his man...Rose get the ball Bogans wait to shoot if his man doubles off him to prevent Roses drive....

Rose shoots.

I go to the game topic and people call it selfish or post emoticons making fun as if...he wasnt supposed to shoot.

You can pretty much tell if Rose is supposed to go one on one by where Noah and Korver are if the yare both in. They run very simple plays. rose can be seen clear as day look to the sideline and recieve a play..run it. And shoot.

End of the game how many shots he took is posted as if each shot attempt kills a kitten and gets a teammates mom molested.

And I just wonder...are these people stuck mentally where I was watching the NBA on CBS in 1986? Or am I just lucky I had a former NBA player and some real ball guys to explain the basics?

Nobody looking at the sets the Bulls play out of could wonder why Rose shoots so much.

Is...seeing a play develop really not something fans do these days?

Or do people think coaches dont have gameplans? They think its playground ball where he just decides on the offense?

He plays the offense hes given. Its often intended to get him to shoot. So he shoots.

Then hes called selfish for it.

And people wonder why I am infatuated with "why"?

Why is everything.....

Here is my problem with that.

You are basically saying that Rose is being doubled and gets a ton of attention...right?

Then why would you want that player taking so many shots? That simply does not make sense. You can hate on the supporting cast as much as you want, but Rose taking shots when doubled is not a better option than making the right and simple pass.

Something Rose really struggles with.

You keep talking about "why"......

Have you ever thought that the reason the Bulls play this way offensively is because Rose is incapable of running a real offense? That might be the "why"......

We've seen what Boozer is capable of playing with a quality pass first, smart, and efficient point guard. I've see what Deng can do getting more touches in the flow of a real offense.......

You can't simply remove Rose from the equation. And if you really think Rose should be shooting so many threes then you just simply have a very flawed way of looking at the game and are clearly too biased to analyze Rose or the bulls.......

[Kblaze8855]

Just check out your first post.

You remove Rose from the other players. That is now how basketball works.....especially when the player we are discussing is a point guard.

You act like how Rose plays has no impact on the other players on offense.

That is the huge flaw in the way you think about Rose. He's a freaking point guard man. Its his job to get his team good shots. Maybe he should do a better job of that. Just a thought.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy. What I don't understand is why a person with a high intellect like you clearly have can't understand the concept that Rose is causing Boozer and Deng to go 7/23 at times....to use your example.

This here I think would be best explained with something else I said long ago. Mostly because it makes it clear its not about Rose at all. 4 years ago in some topic about how Jose Calderon was just so great...

And pointguards dont have to be pass first any more than power forwards have to be enforcers who rebound and play inside. Tony Parker has never been in a game to make plays. Hes there to get to the basket and score while somewhat setting the tempo and usually bringing the ball up. Parker is no more of a point than Baron Davis. In fact hes a good bit worse as a playmaker. I compare a scoring point to a running quarterback. Running doesnt mean you arent a QB and scoring doesnt mean you arent a point. QBs job to get the ball down the field not to pass for passings sake. A points job is to run the offense. If they are the best scorer its not running the offense well to feed inferior players who wont have any success playing a scorers role.

My feelings on this matter long predate Rose.

And many points dont even run their teams offense. They just help implement the gameplan. Coaching is the most disregarded part of what happens on the floor these days. If thibs said to get the ball to ___ he would do it. Rose is not a "**** you coach..." type at all. The vets the last 2 years were saying its hard to even get him to shoot. He does what the system asks of him now.

Fisher is a point...he never exactly ran the triangle. It doesnt work that way. Plenty of guys in motion offenses dont exactly...run the offense. They kinda direct traffic but they dont just decide how things go. its an offense where through much practice you learn where to be and what to do. You dont just follow the directions of a pointguard.

People oversimplify so much of the game. Slap labels on guys and expect them to live up to them instead of doing what the team asks of them.

Rose isnt supposed to make plays and set people up because hes a pointguard any more than Derrick Fisher is. Plenty of systems dont even require the point to handle the ball. Like the Knicks with Don Nelson.

Anthony Mason handles the ball but Nelson himself and Derek harper are calling plays. So who is the point there? Mason has the ball...Harper is guarding the other teams point and calling plays...but Mason is in the sets where a point would traditionally be. Is nobody the point? Or with Carlisle in Indiana. You could see him calling damn near every play. Especially when Tinsley was out or being benched. If hes running the offense what is that guy dribbling doing?

I dont see it as simple as this guy is the shortest and has the ball...so hes supposed to get guys good shots.

Some games the Bulls run damn near as many plays to put Noah in position to set someone up as they do with Rose. when the Kings had Brad Miller, Vlade, and Webber in rotation for a year or two in the high post. you cant tell me Bibby ran that team. If hes not the playmaker in charge of getting guys looks...was he still a pointguard? If a points purpose is setting people up...what is Damon Jones? He didnt run an offense past his time on the Bucks. He might bring the ball up. But he didnt run anything.

I just...dont see it as simple as this guy is the point so hes supposed to make ___ and __ score. A point is failing in his duty to me when hes not an extension of the coaches will and the gameplan his team has practiced.

I understand my way of looking at things isnt quite normal...but I never strive to be normal.

With that I go to bed. goodnight all.....

edit..wanted to clear this up:

Just recently we were discussing Dirk and you continued to talk about how "he" lost to team x or lost in round x. You equated the Mavericks team with Dirk solely.

You are not doing that with Rose. I find that inconsistent and unfair.

Whole point was...if one can understand how Dirk didnt personally lose ___ and ___ it shouldnt be hard to see how KG didnt either. When im being told that KG losing means he failed to...whatever...and I point out that dirk himself failed to...whatever...I like to think my point is clear without spelling it out. Neither claim makes sense. If that was not clear..my bad. But I didnt think it was that cloudy.

[DMAVS41]

This here I think would be best explained with something else I said long ago. Mostly because it makes it clear its not about Rose at all. 4 years ago in some topic about how Jose Calderon was just so great...



My feelings on this matter long predate Rose.

And many points dont even run their teams offense. They just help implement the gameplan. Coaching is the most disregarded part of what happens on the floor these days. If thibs said to get the ball to ___ he would do it. Rose is not a "**** you coach..." type at all. The vert the last 2 years were saying its hard to even get him to shoot. He does what the system asks of him now.

Fisher is a point...he never exactly ran the triangle. It doesnt work that way. Plenty of guys in motion offenses dont exactly...run the offense. They kinda direct traffic but they dont just decide how things go. its an offense where through much practice you learn where to be and what to do. You dont just follow the directions of a pointguard.

People oversimplify so much of the game. Slap labels on guys and expect them to live up to them instead of doing what the team asks of them.

Rose isnt supposed to make plays and set people up because hes a pointguard any more than Derrick Fisher is. Plenty of systems dont even require the point to handle the ball. Like the Knicks with Don Nelson.

Anthony Mason handles the ball but Nelson himself and Derek harper are calling plays. So who is the point there? Mason has the ball...Harper is guarding the other teams point and calling plays...but Mason is in the sets where a point would traditionally be. Is nobody the point? Or with Carlisle in Indiana. You could see him calling damn near every play. Especially when Tinsley was out or being benched. If hes running the offense what is that guy dribbling doing?

I dont see it as simple as this guy is the shortest and has the ball...so hes supposed to get guys good shots.

Some games the Bulls run damn near as many plays to put Noah in position to set someone up as they do with Rose. when the Kings had Brad Miller, Vlade, and Webber in rotation for a year or two in the high post. you can tell me Bibby ran that team. If hes not the playmaker in charge of getting guys looks...was he still a pointguard? If a points purpose is setting people up...what is Damon Jones? He didnt run an offense past his time on the Bucks. He might bring the ball up. But he didnt run anything.

I just...dont see it as simple as this guy is the point so hes supposed to make ___ and __ score. A point is failing in his duty to me when hes not an extension of the coaches will and the gameplan his team has practiced.

I understand my way of looking at things isnt quite normal...but I never strive to be normal.

With that I go to bed. goodnight all.....

I actually agree with most of this.

The point that I think you are missing is that Rose isn't asked to do some of those things because he can't do them.

Nobody is saying Rose is ignoring the coach and not running the plays properly. I'm saying the system is what it is because Rose can't be true point guard.

Its a huge flaw in his game.

That is what I feel you are missing.

[TheAnchorman]

I'm saying the system is what it is because Rose can't be true point guard.

Its a huge flaw in his game.

That is what I feel you are missing.

Soo..

Rose offseason 1: Worked on mid-range jumper
Rose offseason 2: Worked on 3-pter and outside shot


Rose offseason 3: ...Point guard skills? Defense?

[Lodi Dodi]

I loled. Aint gonna lie.

[derman]

Rose is not even the best pg on his own team.
CJ Watson is better than him as pg. Watson was +4 +/-. debrick was -7 +/-.
And you could see this difference in the game. When Watson was on, the bulls had a beautiful and effective ball movement, all players touching the ball, and they almost always found an open shot.

With debrick on, you could see the offense totally stalled. debrick monopolizing the ball, you could almost sense that he was deeply hurt when he had to pass it to someone. And when he made that pass, debrick run around and immediately asked for the ball back. debrick is the ultimate ball-hog, the bulls would be so much better with a pass-first pg who is shooting decent numbers.

[50inchvertical]

How about 9% (1-11) when defended by LeBron

[Heat007]

[DMAVS41]

Soo..

Rose offseason 1: Worked on mid-range jumper
Rose offseason 2: Worked on 3-pter and outside shot


Rose offseason 3: ...Point guard skills? Defense?

You bet. I have no doubt Rose can become a better pg and get smarter.

I'm not speaking to that. He shows signs of it as well. He and Westbrook are very similar right now. They both make passes a little late. They just don't see plays unfold ahead of time like a great pg does. They are a little behind the curve on that right now.

Rose getting an improved 3 point shot has hurt his game actually. He now settles for it way too often. Every time the shot clock goes under 10, he panics and settles for a long three.

[Harison]

The reason why the PG position must be played traditionally is just because of that. If your PG (the guy who dominates the ball) takes the ball up court and doesnt have a pass first mentality, then that alienates your teammates and beats the whole purpose of the PG role, a PG is not just a position, its a role. Those traits are anyways usual suspects for the PG being selfish, not trusting his teammates or simply being not a true PG.

Exactly, I would even extend that it doesnt matter in what position quaterback plays, PG (traditional), SF (like Lebron) or a big man (Wilt, KG sometimes), somebody has to. In some systems its possible to move away further and not have a true quaterback, like for triangle. Bulls dont run triangle, nor they have anyone else but Rose to be quaterback, and he is doing a poor job setting his teammates up.

Kblaze is arguing its all Thibs fault, because its his game plan and Rose just executing it. There is a grain of truth there, since Thibs isnt exactly offense genius and Rose is following his plan, but its also true PG has to have a great court vision and high BBIQ to execute properly. Cant teach that, either player has it, or he doesnt. With maturity and increasing understanding of game and proper timing Rose can improve, but only so much, he wont become playmaker like Nash or Kidd, ever. If anything, Rose is just like Westbrook.

What Bulls (or OKC) could do, is to either treat Rose/Westbrook like AI, and get someone else to run the offense. OKC in their important win actually benched Westbrook in 4Q and asked Eric Maynor to do the job.

Or they have to implement system which minimizes PG importance, like triangle.

Otherwise its extremely hard to win championship with PG's like AI, Westbrook or Rose, its inferior team offense. Actually AI and Rose went so far only because of team defense, but defense plus one-man show can only get team so far.

[BlackJoker23]

kblaze is right that bulls don't have anyone who can create offensively or that rose takes a lot of bailout shots cause of his teammates or that he gets doubled off the pick and roll and has to pass out but the thing is that happens to EVERY SINGLE superstar. Rose isn't the first one.

the whole time people were arguing that he was top 5, on Wade/lebron level etc but he simply isn't. you put wade on the bulls instead of rose and i guarantee he plays better and more efficient. wade had no offense next to him on the 09 or 10 heat yet he played a lot better than rose did. wade doesnt see his efficiency take a hit with increased volume. same with lebron.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

This is why Rose won't come back. He knows he'll be exposed.

[Wang Zhi Zhi]

Someone explain the pic of the girl?

[NumberSix]

Someone explain the pic of the girl?

You creepy.