Kareem's prime and peak?

[CavaliersFTW]

Prime: 69-82
Peak: 75-76

This is reasonable

[Pointguard]

Honestly, CavsFan has footage of a college Kareem, and then footage of his very first NBA game. He is running ALL OVER the court in that footage. He was getting his skyhook off much quicker, and with more elevation, too.

Obviously, he was still a GREAT player the entire decade of the 70's, but for some reason, he lacked motivation. Yes, he could come out a man possessed, and pour in games of 48 or 50 against Walton, but then he would hang 20 on some stumblebum in a loss. His team's were vast underachievers in the latter half of the 70's, too....in a very weak NBA overall.

I have long maintained that had Magic not arrived in '79, that Kareem would have retired around the mid-80's, and would have been labeled a massive underachiever.

I second everything said here. He had bounce and wasn't trying to conserve any energy in his first four years. He was covering large portions of the floor defensively as well. When those two things are at a alltime high your peak is somewhere in there. Kareem had strongly hinted at retirement I think in '78 but once Magic came he was like I'll stay 8 more years.

[K Xerxes]

In terms of absolute offensive and defensive domination... from mid-way thru his 69-70 season, thru that post-season, his entire 70-71 season, including the post-season, and his 71-72 regular season. Aside from Wilt thru the mid-to-late 60's; Moses from '79 thru '83; and Shaq from the late 90's and into the early 00's, KAJ's run was the most impressive ever by a big man.

It's clear to me that you're suggesting as early a peak as possible for Kareem in order to make (old) Wilt's accomplishments against Kareem seem even more impressive. I also find it funny how you say you were there to watch it in the 70s yet ALL you ever do is whore over stats.

How is anyone ever supposed to take your opinion seriously when the agenda is obvious?

[CavaliersFTW]

Kareem in High School and his Sophomore NCAA season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkalgtZraE

[Helix]

It's clear to me that you're suggesting as early a peak as possible for Kareem in order to make (old) Wilt's accomplishments against Kareem seem even more impressive. I also find it funny how you say you were there to watch it in the 70s yet ALL you ever do is whore over stats.

How is anyone ever supposed to take your opinion seriously when the agenda is obvious?

Well, I WAS there and I saw it. Kareem may have been a better, more polished player later on in the 70's, but without question, he WAS at his most dominant in the early 70's.

[bizil]

Might sound crazy to some, but Kareem has a case for his prime being going to 37 or 38 years old. He was still first team All NBA in 1986 when u still had a very good maybe great crop of centers around. He was Finals MVP at 38 years of age. I concede he wasn't as dominant a shot blocker or rebounder though. But on the flip side, the Lakers had EPIC DEEP ASS TEAMS! So Kareem over time didn't have to do as much as before. But even at 37 and 38, u could make the case that Kareem was still in backend prime status. So were are talking in 85 and 86. In a sense, its how Kobe was in backend prime status last year.

[Y2ktors]

Might sound crazy to some, but Kareem has a case for his prime being going to 37 or 38 years old. He was still first team All NBA in 1986 when u still had a very good maybe great crop of centers around. He was Finals MVP at 38 years of age. I concede he wasn't as dominant a shot blocker or rebounder though. But on the flip side, the Lakers had EPIC DEEP ASS TEAMS! So Kareem over time didn't have to do as much as before. But even at 37 and 38, u could make the case that Kareem was still in backend prime status. So were are talking in 85 and 86. In a sense, its how Kobe was in backend prime status last year.

I think that Kareem's prime ended in 1986. But he had a hell of a run as far as prime years are concerned.

[LAZERUSS]

It's clear to me that you're suggesting as early a peak as possible for Kareem in order to make (old) Wilt's accomplishments against Kareem seem even more impressive. I also find it funny how you say you were there to watch it in the 70s yet ALL you ever do is whore over stats.

How is anyone ever supposed to take your opinion seriously when the agenda is obvious?

Of course you ignore REALITY.

In KAJ's SECOND season, he played 40.3 mpg, averaged 31.7 ppg (easily leading the league), 16.0 rpg, and shot .577 from the field, which BTW, was his LARGEST margin against the league average (.449) of his entire career.)
Milwaukee was 65-12 near the end of the season, and coasted to a 66-16 record, and their +12.2 ppg differential ranks just behind the '72 Lakers and '96 Bulls, who were at +12.3.

Defense? The Bucks finished in 3rd in scoring defense (they also led the NBA in scoring offense), and not only that, they LED the NBA in FG% against...at .424. Which was remarkable, in itself, except that they also led the NBA in offensive FG%, at .509. That .085 differential is the largest in NBA history.

In the playoffs, they went 12-2, and their scoring differential of +14.5 ppg is the largest in NBA history. Oh, and BTW, they led the NBA in BOTH scoring, and ppg allowed (their 94.6 ppg allowed was WAY ahead of the league.) They also led that post-season in FG% and FG% allowed, and get this... by a .497 to .395 margin.

Granted, his post-season numbers were not career bests, BUT, he faced Thurmond in the first round, Chamberlain in the second round (right there are the second and third greatest defensive centers in NBA history), and Unseld in the Finals. And how about those Finals. 27.0 ppg, 18.5 rpg, and a .605 FG%...in leading his team to a sweeping win.

And keep in mind that all of this was coming off of his rookie season, in which he tore the league apart in the second half of that season, and then wiped the floor with league MVP Reed in the playoffs. His playoff totals in his ROOKIE season? 35.2 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 4.1 apg, and a .567 FG%.

Then, he really exploded in his THIRD season. He averaged 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, and shot .574 from the field. During that season he was ringing up Cowens for 45 ppg in their H2H's, Chamberlain for 40 ppg in their H2H's, Lanier for 35 ppg, and just shelled anyone not named Thurmond.

His Bucks finished 63-19 in 71-72, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. They also led the league in FG%, at .498. Defensively, the ranked second in ppg allowed, BUT, they ran away with the FG% allowed mark, at .420.


However, KAJ flopped in the post-season. Thurmond easily outscored and outshot him, but Milwaukee's huge personnel edge easily overcame it. But, in the WCF's, Chamberlain chopped him down, especially in the last four games of that series, (when he held KAJ to just a .414 FG%...and was knocking the "unblockable" skyhook out of the gym.)

From that point, he started a slow decline. He overall numbers slowly declined, and the same centers he was crushing in those seasons, narrowed the gap considerably. In his biggest games, he choked,...plain-and-simple.

Furthermore, the Bucks gladly shipped him out after a miserable 74-75 season. He was traded to a Laker team that was on a rapid decline since Wilt retired. They had fallen all the way down to 30-52, just two years after Wilt had retired. Now, here was Kareem's opportunity to REALLY take off. If ever anyone was going to challenge Chamberlain's records, this was it.

It never materialized. KAJ went thru the motions, and his team didn't even make the playoffs. True, he did lead the league in rebounding,...but even that was deceptive. Gone were the great rebounders of the 60's and early 70's. He was barely beating out the 6-9 Cowens, and then well behind, came the 6-7 Unseld, the 6-7 Silas, and Sam Lacey.

Think about this: In KAJ's 71-72 season, he played 44.2 mpg, averaged 34.8 ppg, and shot .574 from the field...on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. In his 75-76 season, and playing on a lowly team... 41.2 mpg, 27.7 ppg, and a .529 FG%. What happened? Where were his 40-50 point games that season? BTW, McAdoo averaged 31.5 ppg that season (and 34.5 ppg the season before.) How come McAdoo could do it, but Kareem couldn't come close?

I have seen other's here claim that his 76-77 season was his PEAK. Just ridiculous! That theory was based solely on his 11 post-season games. During the regular season, he only averaged 26.2 ppg, which was third, and well behind Maravich's 31.1 ppg. He could only average 13.3 rpg (Walton led the league at 14.4 rpg...and in only 34.8 mpg.) Oh, and a very young Moses was right behind, at 13.1 rpg. That would be the last time KAJ came within miles of Moses in rebounding. He did lead the league in FG%, at .579, but this came in a league that shot .465 overall, so it was well behind his .128 differential in 70-71.

Granted, he had a brilliant post-season. He averaged 34.6 ppg, 17.7 rpg, and shot .607 from the field. And he just slaughtered Walton in the WCF's. But, alas, his 53-29 team was swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers.

But let's get real here...that was in 11 post-season games. Where was his 35 ppg, 17 rpg, 5 apg regular season numbers of 71-72?

And from that point on, he was no longer even the best center in the game. Moses quickly rose to power, and not only did Moses outscore and outrebound KAJ in league averages every season until late in the 80's...he just killed him H2H...especially in rebounding.

KAJ won an MVP in 79-80, despite the fact that Moses was the better player, and downright crushed him H2H. If anything Magic should have won it. It was MAGIC who took over an under-achieving mess, and immediately led them to a 60-22 record, and a world title. MAGIC did win a well-deserved FMVP.

In any case, a 79-80 MVP Kareem averaged 24.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.9 bpg, and shot a career high, .604 from the field (BUT, it came in a league that shot .488...again, still behind his 70-71 differential.) BTW, Moses averaged 25.8 ppg, and 14.5 rpg that season (and the year before, he averaged 24.8 ppg and 17.6 rpg.) He would just destroy KAJ from that point on, including the post-season (when he not only crushed KAJ in scoring and rebounding...but his teams went 6-1 against KAJ's.)

IMHO, KAJ's PEAK was from midway in his ROOKIE season (69-70), thru the playoffs, thru the entire 70-71 season, including the playoffs, and then thru his 71-72 regular season. After that he declined and the NUMBERS prove it. Having said that, his PRIME was from 69-70 thru 80-81. But downhill nearly every season after 71-72.

[bizil]

I think that Kareem's prime ended in 1986. But he had a hell of a run as far as prime years are concerned.

I agree! I think 86 is the latest u can say Kareem was in his prime. Some think earlier due to less minutes as well as rebounding and defense. But in terms of being dominant on the scoring shit (the most premium asset in all of bball), Kareem was STILL arguably the most dominant center in the world. Moses was right there too. And u had the young studs in Ewing and Dream. But I think Kareem was still the most feared. And Cap was splitting the pie with Magic, Worthy, Scott, and McAdoo in those later prime years. In '85 he averaged 22.5 PPG! In '86 23.4 PPG on a stacked team. Cap was STILL the primary offensive weapon on the Lakers at 37 and 38 years of age!! Winning rings!!

[LAZERUSS]

Kareem in High School and his Sophomore NCAA season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkalgtZraE

FAR more mobile and athletic, than a mid-70's Kareem.

Great stuff BTW.

[bizil]

I terms of prime and peak, I view it as prime, peak, and backend prime years. Now granted in the cases of T-Mac, Grant Hill, Walton or a Penny, we don't have as many years to judge. But for guys like Kareem, Stockton, and Malone, when they play less minutes, its more maintenance. All three were durable as hell. All three played less minutes later on due to coaches wanted to preserve them for the playoffs. But in reality SOME OF THOSE YEARS were still backend prime kind of years. In particular with Kareem. He had such a loaded team that he could play less minutes and have his defense and rebounding take a hit. But he was still the dominant scorer on the team, making All Star games, making 1st All NBA, winning Finals MVP, and winning rings at 38 years old.

From his rookie year till 38 years of age, Cap was 1st or 2nd team All NBA EVERY YEAR!! That's the definition of backend prime domination. Now the remaining years after you could say Kareem was outta his prime. MJ with the Wizards was outta his prime. MJ in 98 was dominating in his backend prime years though. Once guys fall outta their peak, it doesn't mean they necessarily are outta their prime. Now some guys fall off the mountain after they peak don't have backend prime kind of years. Other guys pimp stroll back down the mountain into immortality!!

[La Frescobaldi]

Well, I WAS there and I saw it. Kareem may have been a better, more polished player later on in the 70's, but without question, he WAS at his most dominant in the early 70's.

Me too ~ this exactly. Watching even Lakers was no fun at all when the Bucks showed up in LA. Like watching a nightmare sometimes with Big O and Kareem.

KAJ would silence the arena crowd in those days like ol' Jimmy Page would when he pulled up a stool and sat down with his acoustic guitar. The thunder and then the whisper.
Everybody just awestruck by the greatness and the glory

[SHAQisGOAT]

This ***** Lazeruss has plenty of alt's. That said, he does everything to prop up Wilt and goes off on stats like a true stat geek, must be like 12.

[kobeef24]

This ***** Lazeruss has plenty of alt's. That said, he does everything to prop up Wilt and goes off on stats like a true stat geek, must be like 12.

This is actually a pretty good thread. Quit ruining it. He didn't even bring Wilt up unless it had something to do with Kareem playing well.

[Pointguard]

The only problem I have with a prime after 1977 is that he began taking short cuts, cut backs on his total game, and being selective on how he is going to participate is rarely seen in any player's prime. Prime is when you still have the energy to do what you think you should be doing at a high level and show enthusiasm for the complete game you had in your possession at your peak. I think Kareem was ecstatic about the game when Magic showed up but he still wasn't hustling and was no longer playing the complete game he had five years earlier. Magic allowed him to polish his game and do the things he liked most with ease but I wouldn't include that in his prime.