Offensive Impact Stats for Kobe and Curry (Team ORtg with and without each guy)

[3ball]

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[COLOR="Darkgreen"]Playoff shots in last 5 minutes, within 5 points, since 2001[/COLOR]


[COLOR="DarkRed"]134-323 for Lebron.. 41.4%[/COLOR]
108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game

https://www.basketball-reference.com...r_by=date_game



[COLOR="DarkRed"]71-171 for Durant.. 41.5%[/COLOR]
56 games.. 3.1 attempts per game

https://www.basketball-reference.com..._asc=&offset=0



91-238 for Kobe.. 38.2%
72 games.. 3.3 attempts per game

https://www.basketball-reference.com...r_by=date_game

Kobe 2000 Playoffs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 10-17.. 58.8% (6 games)
Kobe 1999 Playoffs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2-6.. 33.0% (4 games)
Kobe 1998 Playoffs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2-2.. 100.0% (4 games)
Kobe 1997 Playoffs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 2-7.. 28.6% (2 games)


[COLOR="DarkRed"]106-270 for Kobe overall.. 39.2%[/COLOR]
88 games.. 3.1 attempts per game



Jordan 1997 Playoffs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]42-89 for MJ overall[/COLOR]
25 games.. 3.6 attempts per game..



So old MJ shot much better in tight games on 20% more clutch attempts..
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[3ball]

no you dont get a 96 ortg is easily the worst in the league and an outlier among outliers for the league(lowest in 09 was a 102). you're essentially claiming 115.5-106>16. Thanks for the laugh

Ur comparing apples and oranges

I brought up MJ's missed 94' season to show another example of mj's goat impact, not because it's an analogous or mathematically similar example to the Kobe/Curry data

it isn't the same - we don't have play-by-play info for this kind of data prior to 2008 - that's as far back as the NBA.com data goes..

if there was NBA.com data for Jordan, I would've posted it like I did with the clutch stats shown above, or the closest defender stats for the threes of curry/dame/harden, shown here..

[bigkingsfan]

[RRR3]

Kobe AND Curry confirmed better than Jordan. Damn. Is this dude even a top 5 perimeter player ever?

[3ball]

no you dont get a 96 ortg is easily the worst in the league and an outlier among outliers for the league(lowest in 09 was a 102). you're essentially claiming 115.5-106>16. Thanks for the laugh

Diminishing returns

There's 3 teams in history that reached 115.5 ortg, but a hundred that reached 112 - each tenth of a point gets harder to achieve as a team gets higher and higher

So the 9.5 gap is more than just 9.5 when compared to the 16-point Kobe gap because the Kobe-less offenses aren't falling from as high/rare a place.. you wouldn't expect such a juggernaut of know-how and great quality basketball/teamwork to fall off catastrophically - accordingly, those bulls "only" fell from 2nd all-time to 14th in the league.

Hope that helps

[NBAGOAT]

Diminishing returns

There's 3 teams in history that reached 115.5 ortg, but a hundred that reached 112 - each tenth of a point gets harder to achieve as a team gets higher and higher

So the 9.5 point gap is absolutely more than just 9.5 when compared to the 16-point Kobe gap because the Kobe-less offenses aren't falling from as high/rare a place.. you wouldn't expect such a juggernaut of know-how and great quality basketball to fall off catastrophically, and those bulls "only" fell from 2nd all-time to 14th in the league
.

lol you had to come up with two posts for two separate counterarguments. The first one is correct(i even pointed it out). Apm numbers dont paint jordan as an outlier however. Also diminishing returns dont make up a 7.5 pt gap even though it's a thing.

[3ball]

lol you had to come up with two posts for two separate counterarguments. The first one is correct(i even pointed it out). Apm numbers dont paint jordan as an outlier however. [COLOR="DarkRed"]Also diminishing returns dont make up a 7.5 pt gap even though it's a thing[/COLOR].

We don't have proper data for MJ's apm

All we have is the raw +/-, and MJ set the record in 96', before Curry broke it in 16' (MJ's +/- data is from old 76'er media guides which I have links for)

But that was 96' MJ, so nowhere near his best year or peak, which we don't have data for (88-93')

Regarding the diminishing returns - it absolutely accounts for the 7-pt gap, along with other factors, like the 94' Bulls with full training camp to make new season adjustments and preparation that the Lakers can't make mid-game when Kobe goes to the bench.. so the data is very different..

but again, you're also underestimating how far the drop is from a top 2 all-time offense (115 ortg), compared to a top 100 offense (112)... a top 100 offense is a pretty standard offense and isn't anywhere near a top 2 offense - 112 offenses occur often and fall off often.. but you wouldn't expect a goat offense of know-how and quality basketball to fall off catastrophically, especially not a motivated team

[Smoke117]

[NBAGOAT]

We don't have proper data for MJ's apm

All we have is the raw +/-, and MJ set the record in 96', before Curry broke it in 16' (MJ's +/- data is from old 76'er media guides which I have links for)

But that was 96' MJ, so nowhere near his best year or peak, which we don't have data for (88-93')

Regarding the diminishing returns - it absolutely accounts for the 7-pt gap, along with other factors, like the 94' Bulls with full training camp to make new season adjustments and preparation that the Lakers can't make mid-game when Kobe goes to the bench.. so the data is very different..

but again, you're also underestimating how far the drop is from a top 2 all-time offense (115 ortg), compared to a top 100 offense (112)... a top 100 offense is a pretty standard offense and isn't anywhere near a top 2 offense - 112 offenses occur often and fall off often.. but you wouldn't expect a goat offense of know-how and quality basketball to fall off catastrophically, especially not a motivated team

there have been people who have a decent amount sample size of mj's +/-. I suggest looking up phila's stuff here or realgm

[3ball]

there have been people who have a decent amount sample size of mj's +/-. I suggest looking up phila's stuff here or realgm

do we have play-by-play data for Jordan?

Okay then, so we don't have any real apm stats for him.. just boxscore stuff, a lot of which says he's #1, at least the most important stuff

And I saw plus-minus data on MJ's clutch stats by PHILA, and they showed MJ with a ridiculous edge...

similarly, NBA.com's playoff data on clutch shots shows 97' and 98' MJ shooting much better in the clutch than durant/lebron/kobe), on 20% more clutch attempts (last 5 minutes, within 5..... 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97/98 MJ, and 41% on 3.0 attempts for lebron/durant's entire playoff career)

[NBAGOAT]

do we have play-by-play data for Jordan?

Okay then, so we don't have any real apm stats for him.. just boxscore stuff, a lot of which says he's #1, at least the most important stuff

And I saw plus-minus data on MJ's clutch stats by PHILA, and they showed MJ with a ridiculous edge...

similarly, NBA.com's playoff data on clutch shots shows 97' and 98' MJ shooting much better in the clutch than durant/lebron/kobe), on 20% more clutch attempts (last 5 minutes, within 5..... 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97/98 MJ, and 41% on 3.0 attempts for lebron/durant's entire playoff career)

independent posters have done it based on pretty decent sample sizes(50-75 games from 1st 3 peat mj). Hell you can do it. You dont watch nba today anyway, may as well just rewatch bulls games documenting just mj

[bigkingsfan]

Hell you can do it. You dont watch nba today anyway, may as well just rewatch bulls games documenting just mj

You trust that guy to do it?

[NBAGOAT]

You trust that guy to do it?

no I'm just trying to get him to post less

[Vino24]

I have Curry just ahead of MJ

[StrongLurk]

3ball is definitely autistic.

He has been continuously melting down ever since Durant got injured and Curry went supernova.

Dude is non-step cherry picking as many stats as he can find