Would Kobe's legacy look better if he had this career arc?

[red1]

In the long run, winning those three rings with shaq will play a huge role in his ranking. So no, his legacy absolutely would not be better in the scenario you presented

[Fresh Kid]

True, but how many rings Shaq would have if kobe didnt help him get three?

[DMAVS41]

Kobe's career is boosted by his rings. Saying otherwise is absurd.

Kobe's level of play alone puts him roughly in the 10 to 12 range all time. The only way you get him higher is with rings and longevity. And being the best player on his team early on would have yielded less rings and likely hurt his longevity as carrying a bigger load would have likely added too much wear and tear for him to play at the level he has (when healthy) the last few years.

[2LeTTeRS]

Well, they do him no good in the top 15 discussions.

And I do think that he would have accumulated more than 1 regular season MVP.

The way he played in 03, 06 and 07.

How can a poster with the username Magic32 criticize anyone for success with a legendary big man. Talk about hypocrisy.....

[kennethgriffin]

Still not better than LeBron.

kobes career is still better than lebrons


3 more mvps doesnt make up for 3 less titles



its about # of rings by mvp winners. not number of mvps by ring winners



moses malones 3 mvps, 1 ring is routinely ranked well below shaq, hakeem, kobe, duncan who have less mvps and more rings



now sit down before ya fall down playa

[Magic 32]

In the long run, winning those three rings with shaq will play a huge role in his ranking. So no, his legacy absolutely would not be better in the scenario you presented

But 03-07 was pretty much a waste, in part because of the Shaq era.

Surely whatever he could have achieved between 03-07 would be better than 3 "sidekick rings"

Lets say 2 MVPs, 3 rings and 3 FMVP's.

Very few rank him with other 3 time "first option" winners anyway (Magic, Jordan, Bird, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Duncan).

[K Xerxes]

Well, they do him no good in the top 15 discussions.

Yes they do, who are you trying to convince though?

Knowledgeable fans will value them. Casual fans will not care - they will either say 'Kobe sucks, not top 20 lol' or, on the other end, 'Kobe is top 3, he has 5 rings lol'. They don't know anything.

And I do think that he would have accumulated more than 1 regular season MVP.

The way he played in 03, 06 and 07.

He sure as hell isn't winning 03. That was peak Duncan's year.

I'll give you 06 and 07. He might have won one of those two in addition to his 08 with a better team, if not both of them. But that's as far as I'll go: Kobe was the best player in the game from the 06-08 period. He deserved no other MVPs.

So, maximum I'm looking at is 2 rings, 2 FMVP, 3 MVPs. Is that actually more impressive than his current resume?Is 2 more MVPs worth 3 more rings, given that he played a very important role in all 3, and extremely pivotal in 2 (01 and 02)? I'd say no.

[DMAVS41]

But 03-07 was pretty much a waste, in part because of the Shaq era.

Surely whatever he could have achieved between 03-07 would be better than 3 "sidekick rings"

Lets say 2 MVPs, 3 rings and 3 FMVP's.

Very few ranks him with other 3 times "first option" winners anyway (Magic, Jordan, Bird, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Duncan).

Under what circumstances is Kobe winning 3 rings from 03 through 07?

He couldn't get it done with Shaq in 03 and 04...so pretending he is winning without him those years is silly. He in no way was good enough to win the title in 05.

In 06 he quit on his team in a game 7.

In 07 he was pretty great.

How much help does Kobe have during this time? Does he just happen to have by far the most help or something? I mean...it's a little silly to just talk about piling up MVP's and such.

[Magic 32]

and likely hurt his longevity as carrying a bigger load would have likely added too much wear and tear for him to play at the level he has (when healthy) the last few years.

I think by 2001, he was pretty much doing first option work load in the regular season.

Especially when Shaq "healed on company time" in 2003.

[MastaKilla]

Kobe's career is boosted by his rings. Saying otherwise is absurd.

Kobe's level of play alone puts him roughly in the 10 to 12 range all time. The only way you get him higher is with rings and longevity.

You act like rings and longevity is something that just gets handed out.

Here's a thought, his "level of play" is the reason for his rings & longevity

You act like Kobes level of play is somehow unrelated to his championships and continued success

[NBASTATMAN]

I think by 2001, he was pretty much doing first option work load in the regular season.

Especially when Shaq "healed on company time" in 2003.

WITHOUT SHAQ THE LAKERS WERE 5-10

[DMAVS41]

I think by 2001, he was pretty much doing first option work load in the regular season.

Especially when Shaq "healed on company time" in 2003.

Pretty much? Sure...but that was 4 years into his career already. And playing with a guy like Shaq takes a huge burden off no matter how many shots a player takes. 8 years with prime Shaq just helps longevity in my opinion.

I just don't get this talk honestly.

You could say the same about so many players of this era. You separate players ultimately by level of play and impact. What would KG's career be like if he played with Kobe's help and vice versa is actually a more compelling discussion.

Postulating what Kobe would have done as the best player on stacked teams without Shaq is kind of silly. He would have been great and his team would have won a lot of games. Every great player of the era would have done that....Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, KG, Kobe, Lebron, Wade...

You give those guys top 2 or 3 supporting casts and you are going to get great results in both the regular season and playoffs overall.

[Jacks3]

It would look better. He doesn't get any credit for those 3 rings with Shaq, so his career would have definitely looked better if he had his own team from the beginning. He'd still have multiple rings/Finals appearances as "the man" but also:

Much better career numbers. Instead of 26/5/5/2 he'd probably be somewhere around 30/6/5/2.
Much better post-season numbers.
Another MVP award or 2.
Far more 40+, 50+, 60+ pt games. Right now hes at 120/25/5. With his own team from the beginning of his career, he'd probably be at around 180-90/40/9-12.

Damn shame he was stuck with Shaq for 8 seasons.

Could have been a top 5 player all-time instead of merely top 10.

[Magic 32]

He couldn't get it done with Shaq in 03 and 04...so pretending he is winning without him those years is silly. He in no way was good enough to win the title in 05.

Worked himself into the ground in 2003. And if he plays at 2003 level without the wear and tear of 3 title runs, I think he can get far (and maybe win the MVP).

In 06 he quit on his team in a game 7.

Not if he played on a good team (which is the premise of this thread).

How much help does Kobe have during this time? Does he just happen to have by far the most help or something? I mean...it's a little silly to just talk about piling up MVP's and such.

Let's say he has as much help as he did in 09 and 10.

[LongLiveTheKing]

It would look better. He doesn't get any credit for those 3 rings with Shaq, so his career would have definitely looked better if he had his own team from the beginning. He'd still have multiple rings/Finals appearances as "the man" but also:

Much better career numbers. Instead of 26/5/5/2 he'd probably be somewhere around 30/6/5/2.
Much better post-season numbers.
Another MVP award or 2.
Far more 40+, 50+, 60+ pt games. Right now hes at 120/25/5. With his own team from the beginning of his career, he'd probably be at around 180-90/40/9-12.

Damn shame he was stuck with Shaq for 8 seasons.

Could have been a top 5 player all-time instead of merely top 10.

Except he wouldn't have won his first 3 titles without Shaq.